Panelboards in Bedrooms

[George Stolz]

From another thread (I'd don't mean to pick on you, mxslick):

Seriously, it is amazing how much damage some arc flash can cause..and this pic is a prime reason why I object to panels in bedrooms (allowed by Code, but I think just not in the best idea for safety.)

A few years back on another forum I got into a spirited debate about the reasons why I didn't like panels in bedrooms..and I actually persuaded one member who was difficult to convince of anything to see the light.

I'm curious - how many people believe that a panelboard in a bedroom is not a safe practice? I've never thought twice about it.

 

[dreamsville]

I don't think I would install one in a bedroom myself. Only seen it a few times. Thought it was odd but not a safety hazard.

 

[chris kennedy]

I'm curious - how many people believe that a panelboard in a bedroom is not a safe practice?

There's not enough room in the closet?

 

[George Stolz]

This kinda struck a chord with me, because at the job I'm on the GC is going to a lot of trouble to paint the panel covers to make them more attractive. My first thought is gray is the new brown - and then I thought, if they didn't want to see the panelboard why did they draw it where it could be seen from the front door of the apartment? Why not behind the door in a bedroom?

 

[dreamsville]

This kinda struck a chord with me, because at the job I'm on the GC is going to a lot of trouble to paint the panel covers to make them more attractive. My first thought is gray is the new brown - and then I thought, if they didn't want to see the panelboard why did they draw it where it could be seen from the front door of the apartment? Why not behind the door in a bedroom?

If behind the door would this violate the code pertaining to clearances in front off the panel when the door is open?

 

[chris kennedy]

This kinda struck a chord with me, because at the job I'm on the GC is going to a lot of trouble to paint the panel covers to make them more attractive. My first thought is gray is the new brown - and then I thought, if they didn't want to see the panelboard why did they draw it where it could be seen from the front door of the apartment? Why not behind the door in a bedroom?

We don't pick em, we just stick em.

Not a violation. First choice...???

 

[jaylectricity]

If behind the door would this violate the code pertaining to clearances in front off the panel when the door is open?

That clearance pertains to work space. If one needed to work on the panel, the door can be closed to maintain the space. The space doesn't have to stay there at all times.

 

[byourdesky]

The space doesn't have to stay there at all times.

I like when they use the electrical room as a storage closet

 

[celtic]

I'm curious - how many people believe that a panelboard in a bedroom is not a safe practice? I've never thought twice about it.

Is it any safer than a hallway?

I don't give either location much thought.

I like when they use the electrical room as a storage closet

That's like everytime

 

[jaylectricity]

I like when they use the electrical room as a storage closet

Most people can't read the sign on the door that says, "No Storage."

We oughtta start teaching our kids to read again. Someday...someday.

 

[kwired]

That clearance pertains to work space. If one needed to work on the panel, the door can be closed to maintain the space. The space doesn't have to stay there at all times.

I wouuld prefer to place a panel in any room (except bathroom of course) where it has a door protecting the required work space from being used for storage, and I have installed many panels in bedrooms usually right behind the door, it is about the only place in the house where you are guranteed clear access to the panel at practically any time. I don't care how much room a mechanical room has there is always things stored in front of a panel.

 

[celtic]

Most people can't read the sign on the door that says, "No Storage."

We oughtta start teaching our kids to read again. Someday...someday.

I'm doing a job at a school....the door to the elec. room has a sign "FIRE DOOR - MUST BE CLOSED AT ALL TIMES".
Ok ...

The head custodian is pretty adamant about us shutting the door about a million times a day...
...inside said electrical room?

Storage.

:grin:

I'll post some pix in the next few days.

 

[infinity]

There's nothing wrong with installing a panel in a bedroom. It's likely safer than installing one in a location where flammable or combustible materials can be stored in front of it like in a garage or basement. And putting the panel behind the door ensures that it will never have anything stored in front of it.

 

[dreamsville]

Now that I think about it....where did the NEC first require AFCI protected circuits? .....for bedrooms. For what reason? .....the thinking was that as you slept there was danger of arcing wires causing a fire starting in your bedroom. So if the NEC is so concerned with arcing wires causing fires why would they allow a whole panel full of connections in a bedroom?....seems to me that the law of averages would dictate that you have a greater chance of having an arcing wire based on the greater number of connections. Granted that they are contained within a metal panel to help limit the spread of fire.

So you're required to have an AFCI protected circuit coming out of your bedroom installed service panel for that bedroom. But a whole lot of other non-AFCI protected circuits coming out of that same panel in that same bedroom running through the bedroom walls, ceilings etc...going elsewhere. Seems like if the NEC's so concerned with arcing wires in bedrooms that they would not allow service panels or even sub panels to be located in bedrooms.

Just a thought......

 

[LarryFine]

Why not behind the door in a bedroom?

Probably because the bedroom door is rarely against an outside wall; the outside wall being the only reason to choose a bedroom wall to begin with.

 

[George Stolz]

Now that I think about it....where did the NEC first require AFCI protected circuits? .....for bedrooms. For what reason? .....the thinking was that as you slept there was danger of arcing wires causing a fire starting in your bedroom.

I think you could be rationalizing the requirement.

I don't have access to the ROP leading to the 1993, 1996 or 1999 NECs, but according to Alan Manche's proposal in the 2008 NEC (Proposal 2-142 Log #3488) he said:

For the past three NEC cycles, CMP 2 has reviewed extensive amounts of data and information pertaining to the benefit of AFCIs for the protection of dwelling unit branch circuits. After careful consideration the panel decided to required AFCIs on branch circuits that supplied bedrooms as a means to gain experience and to put the application in an easily defined area.

 

[George Stolz]

Probably because the bedroom door is rarely against an outside wall; the outside wall being the only reason to choose a bedroom wall to begin with.

I disagree. In the 24-plexes at the project I am working at, all the panels are located on interior walls. If I were choosing placement, I would favor interior walls so as to not interfere with insulation in the exterior walls.

The main reason I'd pick a bedroom wall is because the only walls left are in the living room (highly visible), bathroom (illegal), laundry (illegal - 110.26), and bedroom closet (illegal).

 

[quogueelectric]

Now that I think about it....where did the NEC first require AFCI protected circuits? .....for bedrooms. For what reason? .....the thinking was that as you slept there was danger of arcing wires causing a fire starting in your bedroom. So if the NEC is so concerned with arcing wires causing fires why would they allow a whole panel full of connections in a bedroom?....seems to me that the law of averages would dictate that you have a greater chance of having an arcing wire based on the greater number of connections. Granted that they are contained within a metal panel to help limit the spread of fire.

So you're required to have an AFCI protected circuit coming out of your bedroom installed service panel for that bedroom. But a whole lot of other non-AFCI protected circuits coming out of that same panel in that same bedroom running through the bedroom walls, ceilings etc...going elsewhere. Seems like if the NEC's so concerned with arcing wires in bedrooms that they would not allow service panels or even sub panels to be located in bedrooms.

Just a thought......

That was an excelent thought. Lets take it one step further. Would a panel be considered an outlet. Would it have to be all on arcfault. Even the feeder!

 

[480sparky]

Now that I think about it....where did the NEC first require AFCI protected circuits? .....for bedrooms. For what reason? .....the thinking was that as you slept there was danger of arcing wires causing a fire starting in your bedroom. So if the NEC is so concerned with arcing wires causing fires why would they allow a whole panel full of connections in a bedroom?....seems to me that the law of averages would dictate that you have a greater chance of having an arcing wire based on the greater number of connections. Granted that they are contained within a metal panel to help limit the spread of fire.

So you're required to have an AFCI protected circuit coming out of your bedroom installed service panel for that bedroom. But a whole lot of other non-AFCI protected circuits coming out of that same panel in that same bedroom running through the bedroom walls, ceilings etc...going elsewhere. Seems like if the NEC's so concerned with arcing wires in bedrooms that they would not allow service panels or even sub panels to be located in bedrooms.

Just a thought......

AFCIs were required in bedroom circuits because in the majority of electrical fires that resulted in death, the people were in the bedroom. Asleep. Think about it...... You spend most of your time in your home in the bedroom sleeping. Ergo, for some silly reason the NFPA decided that's where you should start AFCiing circuits. Never mind an electrical fire can start anywhere in a home and still kill you. Guess that's the conclusion they finally came to and now we have AFCI all through the home.

Personally, I don't see any difference between putting a panel in a bedroom as opposed to the garage, basement, etc. Many an apartment building I've done all the panels are behind the Master BR door. Yea, someone can hang their bathrobe on the back of the door so it's right in line for a nice pretty arc. But the same holds true no matter where you put a panel... someone will put something flammable in front of it.

 

[LarryFine]

The main reason I'd pick a bedroom wall is because the only walls left are in the living room (highly visible), bathroom (illegal), laundry (illegal - 110.26), and bedroom closet (illegal).

No kitchens?