Required receps per 210.52

[dnem]

Can you put a receptacle in the floor right in the middle of the doorway, and have it count as serving the three feet of wall space to the left of the door and the two feet of wall space to the right of the door? I think that the ?wall space receptacle? should be required to be within the wall space itself. I recognize that the present NEC word do not contain that requirement.

"I recognize that the present NEC word do not contain that requirement."
I don't agree. . I think the present wording allows a floor box to be counted only if it is within 18" of the wall. . The floor box in the middle of the doorway opening is not in front of a wall.

Are you measuring 18" diagonally to the doorframe ? . We already decided thumbs down to diagonal measurements when the 5 1/2' [210.52(4)] was discussed. . You can only go floor line [210.52(A)(1)] or wall line [210.52(C)(1)]. . Then you establish a right angle plane that runs up the wall to 5 1/2' and across the floor to 18".

 

[dnem]

Now it is easy to see why you don’t understand the placement of receptacles, you can’t read. I see the spacing of receptacles in that section through the references made.

Since I haven't made up my mind yet which side in this argument is correct, I guess I can't read either, so why don't you give us reading lessons.

(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1)
shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A),
all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C),
and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

So there's 2 categories, I understand that but that doesn't answer the question if one plug can satisfy the requirements of both categories.

Since you're too emotionally attached to this answer, let's try a different question and see if you can calmly explain why one plug can't satify 2 separate categories of requirements.

I've got a front outside plug on my house that satisfies 210.52(E)(1). . If it's within 25' of the AC, can the same plug cover the 210.63 requirement ?

 

[dnem]

What if it wasn't a kitchen?

What if it was a desk that was permantly attached to the wall?

Would you have to add more receptacles?

Good question !

Did you see the new '08 wording in 210.52(C) ? . It's not just kitchen counters anymore.

But even with the new '08 wording, what if the counter was in your den or bedroom ? . Does the countertop plug count toward the requirements for the entire wall space ?

 

[roger3829]

Good question !

Did you see the new '08 wording in 210.52(C) ? . It's not just kitchen counters anymore.

But even with the new '08 wording, what if the counter was in your den or bedroom ? . Does the countertop plug count toward the requirements for the entire wall space ?

That's my point. I we were talking about a den, I don't think anyone would have a problem. We seem to be hung up on it becase it's a kitchen. What difference does it make where it is?

 

[roger3829]

I've got a front outside plug on my house that satisfies 210.52(E)(1). . If it's within 25' of the AC, can the same plug cover the 210.63 requirement ?

Sure. Why wouldn't it. Nothing says it has to be a dedicated outlet for the AC only.

Does the receptacle for the refrigerator HAVE to be behind it? Can it also serve the countertop space next to it? As long as it's connected to a SABC it would be fine. Not ideal, but it would meet the code.

 

[dnem]

I've got a front outside plug on my house that satisfies 210.52(E)(1). . If it's within 25' of the AC, can the same plug cover the 210.63 requirement ?

Sure. Why wouldn't it. Nothing says it has to be a dedicated outlet for the AC only.

Yeah. . Sometimes you get a dedicated requirement, such as 422.12, but certainly not for a servicing plug.

The reason I brought up this example is because it already came up during the last code cycle. . Porch plugs were being moved off of the porch to a spot that was within 25' of the AC. . That caused more extension cords to be used to get power back to the porch area. . The response of the CMP was not to say that one plug can't cover the requirements of both 210.52(E)(1) + 210.63. . Their response was to add another requirement as found in 210.52(E)(3). . For '08, one plug can double duty only if it stays "within the perimeter of the" porch and is within 25' of the AC.

Does the receptacle for the refrigerator HAVE to be behind it? Can it also serve the countertop space next to it? As long as it's connected to a SABC it would be fine. Not ideal, but it would meet the code.

There's alot of examples of one plug meeting multiple code categories/requirements.

I think the burden is on Mike Whitt to prove that one plug can't meet both 210.52(A)(1)+(C)(1).

 

[480sparky]

No, but I could choose to wire a whole room with floor boxes if I wanted to and be within the parameters of 210.52. Why would a floor box 18" off the wall count and a countertop/island/peninsula receptacle not count:-?

210.52(C)(1) states the receps go in the wall. If you put it in the floor, the recep is too far from the c'top.

 

[charlie b]

"I recognize that the present NEC wording does not contain that requirement."

I don't agree. . I think the present wording allows a floor box to be counted only if it is within 18" of the wall. . The floor box in the middle of the doorway opening is not in front of a wall.

Yes it is in front of a wall. It is not in front of an area that 210.52(A)(2)(1) would count as "wall space." But the "wall" extends from floor to ceiling, and from left side wall to right side wall. As you stand in the doorway, part of the wall is above your head. If at that moment you are standing on a receptacle, then that receptacle is not more than 18 inches from the wall. :grin:

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

210.52(C)(1) states the receps go in the wall. If you put it in the floor, the recep is too far from the c'top.

I wasn't implying that the floor boxes would eliminate the need for countertop recepts but just trying to prove a point that floor boxes can count as wall space recepts per 210.52 (A) (3) and I don't see why countertop recepts can't count as the required recepts in 210.52(A) (1)

 

[charlie b]

I will submit a proposal to get this clarified.

I have submitted the proposal, and have posted it here:
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=106199

 

[dnem]

Yes it is in front of a wall. It is not in front of an area that 210.52(A)(2)(1) would count as "wall space." But the "wall" extends from floor to ceiling, and from left side wall to right side wall. As you stand in the doorway, part of the wall is above your head. If at that moment you are standing on a receptacle, then that receptacle is not more than 18 inches from the wall. :grin:

It doesn't matter that there's a wall space above the door opening. . 210.(A)(2)(1) "unbroken along the floor line" is the only wall recognized.

 

[jwelectric]

If it's so obvious, why don't you copy the portion of that section that tells me where to place a receptacle.

First let me apologize if I was harsh with my statement about reading. It was meant to say to read the references outlined in this section

210.52
(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.

210.52(A) General Provisions. In every kitchen, family room, dining room, living room, parlor, library, den, sunroom, bedroom, recreation room, or similar room or area of dwelling units, receptacle outlets shall be installed in accordance with the general provisions specified in 210.52(A)(1) through (A)(3).
(1) Spacing. Receptacles shall be installed such that no point measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space is more than 1.8 m (6 ft) from a receptacle outlet.
(2) Wall Space. As used in this section, a wall space shall include the following:
(1) Any space 600 mm (2 ft) or more in width (including space measured around corners) and unbroken along the floor line by doorways, fireplaces, and similar openings
(2) The space occupied by fixed panels in exterior walls, excluding sliding panels
(3) The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as freestanding bar-type counters or railings

Then there is a complete separate rule that deals with countertops and here we are not measuring along the floor line. Instead the measurement is along the wall line. No the wall line receptacle cannot count for the floor line receptacle.
Maybe I was a little harsh with my comment about reading but this is what I am reading. What are you reading?

210.52(C) Countertops. In kitchens, pantries, breakfast rooms, dining rooms, and similar areas of dwelling units, receptacle outlets for countertop spaces shall be installed in accordance with 210.52(C)(1) through (C)(5).
Where a range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink is installed in an island or peninsular countertop and the width of the countertop behind the range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink is less than 300 mm (12 in.), the range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink is considered to divide the countertop space into two separate countertop spaces as defined in 210.52(C)(4). Each separate countertop space shall comply with the applicable requirements in 210.52(C).
(1) Wall Countertop Spaces. A receptacle outlet shall be installed at each wall countertop space that is 300 mm (12 in.) or wider. Receptacle outlets shall be installed so that no point along the wall line is more than 600 mm (24 in.) measured horizontally from a receptacle OUTLET IN THAT SPACE.
(2) Island Countertop Spaces. At least one receptacle shall be installed at each island countertop space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater.
(3) Peninsular Countertop Spaces. At least one receptacle outlet shall be installed at each peninsular countertop space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater. A peninsular countertop is measured from the connecting edge.
(4) Separate Spaces. Countertop spaces separated by rangetops, refrigerators, or sinks shall be considered as separate countertop spaces in applying the requirements of 210.52(C)(1), (C)(2), and (C)(3).
(5) Receptacle Outlet Location. Receptacle outlets shall be located above, but not more than 500 mm (20 in.) above, the countertop. Receptacle outlets rendered not readily accessible by appliances fastened in place, appliance garages, sinks, or rangetops as covered in 210.52(C)(1), Exception, or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be considered as these required outlets.

If one could count as the other then why not have just one section with one more subsection that outlined the countertop receptacles spacing be shortened up to no point along the countertop to be more than 2 feet.

The Style Manual clearly states that any section that has a subsection that subsection is addressing the section above it and that section only.

What if it wasn't a kitchen? What if it was a desk that was permantly attached to the wall? Would you have to add more receptacles?

Then we wouldn?t be talking about the countertop receptacles would we? To compare the outside receptacles, floor receptacles or any other receptacle in a building would not be talking about the countertop receptacles now would it?
I was under the impression that this discussion was about the countertop receptacles counting for the required floor wall line receptacle outlined in 210.52(A).
Why all this talk about all these other receptacles????????????????????

 

[charlie b]

It doesn't matter that there's a wall space above the door opening. . 210.(A)(2)(1) "unbroken along the floor line" is the only wall recognized.

Please refer to "Charlie's Rule." That is not what it says. It does not say what a wall is. It does not recognize one thing as being a wall, and it does not declare that another thing is not a wall. When the code is using the phrase "unbroken along the floor line," it is talking about "wall space," not "walls." But when it speaks of a floor receptacle's being within 18 inches, it says within 18 inches of a wall, not within 18 inches of wall space.

The wording of this article does leave much to be desired.

 

[William1978]

I was under the impression that this discussion was about the countertop receptacles counting for the required floor wall line receptacle outlined in 210.52(A).[/FONT][/SIZE]
Why all this talk about all these other receptacles????????????????????

Let it go Mike Witt so you will be able to sleep tonight.

 

[dnem]

Please refer to "Charlie's Rule." That is not what it says. It does not say what a wall is. It does not recognize one thing as being a wall, and it does not declare that another thing is not a wall. When the code is using the phrase "unbroken along the floor line," it is talking about "wall space," not "walls." But when it speaks of a floor receptacle's being within 18 inches, it says within 18 inches of a wall, not within 18 inches of wall space.

The wording of this article does leave much to be desired.

I can now see that you are differentiating between "wall" and "wall space" and now understand your argument. . But it doesn't change the fact that I disagree with it. . We don't need to code change to understand that the only wall recognized by 210.52(A)(2) is one "unbroken along the floor line".

I honestly think this is a very similar argument as Clinton used when he asked about the definition of the word "is". . I know what "is" means and I know what "wall" means.

 

[480sparky]

That's my point. I we were talking about a den, I don't think anyone would have a problem. We seem to be hung up on it becase it's a kitchen. What difference does it make where it is?

A kitchen countertop is required to have receps. A desk in a den doesn't.

 

[dnem]

Let it go Mike Witt so you will be able to sleep tonight.

I've stated to Mike Whitt the reason that I'm inclined to disagree with Mike. . Now let me state the reason that I am inclined to agree with him.

Look at the picture again.
4' open wall
4' counter
4' open wall
If the plugs over the counter also "double duty" as plugs within 6' of the floor break, then what would stop the reverse from being true ?

Follow this slight change to the current scenario/posted picture:

If I move the plug on the right side farther to the right by 2' and move it down to about 18" from the floor, what is my plug spacing between plugs ? . Isn't it 4' ?, which is allowed by both 210.52(A)(1) 6'x2=12' max + 210.52(C)(1) 2'x2=4' max

How about the 2' from the right edge ? . My new location for my low plug is only one foot from the right edge.

Now I'm sure many will point to the 210.52(C)(1) wording that says, "installed at each wall countertop space" and my new right plug location is no longer over the countertop. . And I would agree with that objection BUT, is that objection really substantially different than the one Mike Whitt is raising about accepting one plug for "double duty" ?

I'm not sure what to think here

 

[mltech11]

no additional receps required

no additional receps required

The two receps do not exceed more than 6ft from each other on the 12 ft wall, and the receps on the counter are not more than 5 1/2 ft. above the finished floor. Therefore, no additonal receps are required.

 

[jwelectric]

I've stated to Mike Whitt the reason that I'm inclined to disagree with Mike. . Now let me state the reason that I am inclined to agree with him.

Look at the picture again.
4' open wall
4' counter
4' open wall
If the plugs over the counter also "double duty" as plugs within 6' of the floor break, then what would stop the reverse from being true ?

Follow this slight change to the current scenario/posted picture:

If I move the plug on the right side farther to the right by 2' and move it down to about 18" from the floor, what is my plug spacing between plugs ? . Isn't it 4' ?, which is allowed by both 210.52(A)(1) 6'x2=12' max + 210.52(C)(1) 2'x2=4' max

How about the 2' from the right edge ? . My new location for my low plug is only one foot from the right edge.

Now I'm sure many will point to the 210.52(C)(1) wording that says, "installed at each wall countertop space" and my new right plug location is no longer over the countertop. . And I would agree with that objection BUT, is that objection really substantially different than the one Mike Whitt is raising about accepting one plug for "double duty" ?

I'm not sure what to think here

Great analysis of this situation and I agree whole heartily.

 

[dnem]

Great analysis of this situation and I agree whole heartily.

Maybe if we say "Pretty Please !!" we can get 480sparky to draw that modification as a picture and post it