Required receps per 210.52

[Inspectorcliff]

Here's the situation: 12-foot wall in a dwelling kitchen. 4-foot countertop right in the middle of it. Two receps installed 1' from each end of the c'top. See drawing below.

Question: Are more receptacles required by 210.52 in the light-blue shaded areas?

If possible, explain your response.

From what I see, we have a extra long 2ft wall space, is that what I am looking at?

 

[480sparky]

I've stated to Mike Whitt the reason that I'm inclined to disagree with Mike. . Now let me state the reason that I am inclined to agree with him.

Look at the picture again.
4' open wall
4' counter
4' open wall
If the plugs over the counter also "double duty" as plugs within 6' of the floor break, then what would stop the reverse from being true ?

Follow this slight change to the current scenario/posted picture:

If I move the plug on the right side farther to the right by 2' and move it down to about 18" from the floor, what is my plug spacing between plugs ? . Isn't it 4' ?, which is allowed by both 210.52(A)(1) 6'x2=12' max + 210.52(C)(1) 2'x2=4' max

How about the 2' from the right edge ? . My new location for my low plug is only one foot from the right edge.

Now I'm sure many will point to the 210.52(C)(1) wording that says, "installed at each wall countertop space" and my new right plug location is no longer over the countertop. . And I would agree with that objection BUT, is that objection really substantially different than the one Mike Whitt is raising about accepting one plug for "double duty" ?

I'm not sure what to think here

Are you saying put the receps outside the 4' the countertop occupies? In other words, into the blue areas. If so, you'd need another recep to serve the c'top per the 2' rule of 210.52(C)(1).

From what I see, we have a extra long 2ft wall space, is that what I am looking at?

???? You're looking at a 12' wall, there's no 2' walls drawn.

 

[charlie b]

I can now see that you are differentiating between "wall" and "wall space" and now understand your argument.

What is more important is that the NEC differentiates between ?wall space? and ?wall counter space.?

We don't need to code change to understand that the only wall recognized by 210.52(A)(2) is one "unbroken along the floor line".

Only? Only? Somewhere before the ?unbroken? phrase is the single word, ?includes.? When you include something, that does not mean that you exclude all other things.

Consider, if you would, a kitchen that has a wall that is partially, but not completely, fitted with cabinets. Suppose there is open wall space on both sides of a section of cabinetry. Suppose you start measuring the left-hand open wall space, in order to lay out the wall space receptacles. Please note that the ?unbroken along the floor line? concept does not include permanently installed cabinets (or bookcases, for that matter). It only lists ?openings,? and a kitchen cabinet is not an opening. Please note also that the wall space measurements must include going around corners.

Therefore, you will measure along the floor line, come to the cabinet base, measure around the corner to the front of the cabinet, continue measuring along the front of the base cabinet until you come to its other edge, measure around the corner to the back of the cabinet, and continue the measurement along the remaining floor line. This puts the ?wall space? receptacle requirements of 210.52(A)(1) at odds with the ?wall counter spaces? receptacle requirements of 210.52(C)(1). The lines at which the sides and the front of a kitchen cabinet meet the floor should not be considered ?wall spaces,? in the context of 210.52(A)(1). The present wording allows them to be considered wall spaces.

I think a code change is needed, and I submitted three yesterday on this general area of the code. Now we get to wait to see whether the CMP thinks a change is needed.

I honestly think this is a very similar argument as Clinton used when he asked about the definition of the word "is". . I know what "is" means and I know what "wall" means.

I don?t see the arguments as being similar at all. This isn?t about definitions; the code does not define ?wall,? or ?wall space,? or ?wall counter space.? This is about the code saying exactly what the code says: nothing more, and nothing less. Which brings us back to Charlie?s Rule.

 

[Inspectorcliff]

Are you saying put the receps outside the 4' the countertop occupies? In other words, into the blue areas. If so, you'd need another recep to serve the c'top per the 2' rule of 210.52(C)(1).




???? You're looking at a 12' wall, there's no 2' walls drawn.

So, I have a wall that is 12ft long and in the center I have a 4ft countertop and the outlets are spaced ok, then I have two wall spaces of each that is 4 ft in width that I do not need to install the outlets required bye 210.52 (A) (2)(1) for 2 ft wallspace?
help me

 

[Inspectorcliff]

take alook.

take alook.

Are you saying put the receps outside the 4' the countertop occupies? In other words, into the blue areas. If so, you'd need another recep to serve the c'top per the 2' rule of 210.52(C)(1).
PLEASE OPEN AND EXAMINE, thanks. Cliff



???? You're looking at a 12' wall, there's no 2' walls drawn.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3023/3003075607_07b91b410e_o.jpg by the way, what is Charlie's law? Just in case I have already broken it. (

 

[eprice]

Now I'm sure many will point to the 210.52(C)(1) wording that says, "installed at each wall countertop space" and my new right plug location is no longer over the countertop. . And I would agree with that objection BUT, is that objection really substantially different than the one Mike Whitt is raising about accepting one plug for "double duty" ?

Rather than 210.52(C)(1), I would point to 210.52(C)(5) and argue that your newly located receptacle cannot be counted as serving the counter space because it is not located above the counter space as required by that section.

 

[Inspectorcliff]

480 sparky,

480 sparky,

Ok, 1) Wall Countertop Spaces. A receptacle outlet shall be installed at each wall countertop space that is 300 mm (12 in.) or wider. Receptacle outlets shall be installed so that no point along the wall line is more than 600 mm (24 in.) measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in that space.

I see where you are coming from, and I understand your thinking, and that scares me. No, not really, here is my most humbling opinion. MMHO,

 

[Inspectorcliff]

Are you saying put the receps outside the 4' the countertop occupies? In other words, into the blue areas. If so, you'd need another recep to serve the c'top per the 2' rule of 210.52(C)(1).




???? You're looking at a 12' wall, there's no 2' walls drawn.

I said extra long 2' walls which within a 4ft space you will have 2' wall space, (I think).

 

[dnem]

Now I'm sure many will point to the 210.52(C)(1) wording that says, "installed at each wall countertop space" and my new right plug location is no longer over the countertop. . And I would agree with that objection BUT, is that objection really substantially different than the one Mike Whitt is raising about accepting one plug for "double duty" ?

Rather than 210.52(C)(1), I would point to 210.52(C)(5) and argue that your newly located receptacle cannot be counted as serving the counter space because it is not located above the counter space as required by that section.

Very good ! . I didn't see that one coming !

Does this mean that you think a counter plug can "double duty" to cover a regular wall space but a regular wall space plug can not "double duty" to cover the counter space ?

 

[480sparky]

Ok, 1) Wall Countertop Spaces. A receptacle outlet shall be installed at each wall countertop space that is 300 mm (12 in.) or wider. Receptacle outlets shall be installed so that no point along the wall line is more than 600 mm (24 in.) measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in that space.

I see where you are coming from, and I understand your thinking, and that scares me. No, not really, here is my most humbling opinion. MMHO,

The highlighted portion of the code has been satisfied in the illustration. The question is: Are more receptacles required on either side of the cabinet.

 

[charlie b]

. . . by the way, what is Charlie's law? Just in case I have already broken it. (

It's not a "law." It's called "Charlie's Rule." It was originally written to cover any type of reference document, instruction document, regulation, or explanatory material. But it was modified a few years back to apply to the NEC, or rather to the process of reading the NEC. The short version is this, "It doesn't say what you think it says . . . It says what it says."

I think the full text is available somewhere on this forum.

 

[frizbeedog]

It's not a "law." It's called "Charlie's Rule." It was originally written to cover any type of reference document, instruction document, regulation, or explanatory material. But it was modified a few years back to apply to the NEC, or rather to the process of reading the NEC. The short version is this, "It doesn't say what you think it says . . . It says what it says."

I think the full text is available somewhere on this forum.

here

and here

 

[Inspectorcliff]

Thanks guys, now

Thanks guys, now

That the election is over and the votes are in, I feel that I can undertand "Charlies Rule" not Charlies Law.

 

[eprice]

Does this mean that you think a counter plug can "double duty" to cover a regular wall space but a regular wall space plug can not "double duty" to cover the counter space ?

Well, I think that a regular wall space receptacle cannot "double duty" to cover the counter space. As for the counter plug doing "double duty" to cover the regular wall space, I voted that way in the poll and though I've seen some good arguments the other way, I'm still comfortable with my vote.

 

[wbalsam1]

I think that some are mixing apples with oranges here.

210.52 has requirements for two different spaces.

(A) General Provisions.
And
(B) Countertops.

I don?t think that you would be allowed to count a countertop receptacle for a wall receptacle.
The picture as drawn would not require a wall receptacle until you reached 6 feet unless the four foot was at the end of the wall in which case a wall receptacle would be required to be installed in that space.

In the "For what it's worth department", I'm in agreement with the above text I have highlighted. :smile:

 

[billsnuff]

wall recepts cannot count for counter top as they are not above the counter top 210.52c5. but my logic (FWIW) leads me the believe that the rules for wall outlets are the base std for a dwelling (12') and that the countertop is a more restrictive (2') rule. Based on the exceptions in 210.52 (1 - 4) that dont count, i still think the countertop recepts count toward the wall. JMSO

it specifically says these don't count, so i say if it ain't excluded, it's included.

 

[jjhoward]

I would say NO.
That wall is 12'
You have 2 receptacles on the wall. By my logic you have meet the requirements of both kitchen cntr receptacles and 6' spacing along walls.

In Jersey, you could say the counter was added after you put in the recetpacles.

So....NJ rehab code then obiviates 210.52.

 

[radiopet]

My opinion is the image ( if the walls end at the end of the picture ) requires receptacle within the blue shadded area.

210.52(A) applies to the "wall space" requirement and 210.52(C)(1) applies to the "wall counter spaces" and in my view are different requirements.

Now, I can see arguments either way so in the end guess it boils down to what the local AHJ determines. I look forward to seeing what Charlie proposals stirs up.

What might be interesting is to submit an request for an informal interp. from th NFPA's staff ( like Mr. Sargent ) to see just how they feel also...i think I will do that and see what they happen to say.

 

[radiopet]

Update:

Just for those who care to know what someone at the NFPA says on the issue. I have attached the "informal" opinion of Mr. Mark Cloutier, NFPA Senior Electrical Engineer.


The question was can 210.52(A)(1) and 210.52(A)(2) wall space requiremnt be met with the 210.52(C)(1) receptacle .

No, It is of my opinion that the spacing requirements in 210.52(A)(1) with regard to spacing of receptacle outlets and 210.52(A)(2) for what is included as a wall space clearly distinguish receptacle outlets installed to satisfy the wall spacing requirements from those required to be installed in wall countertop spaces to serve countertop spaces in 210.52(C). In accordance with 210.52(A)(1) a receptacle outlet must be installed in the floor wall space and in accordance with 210.52(C)(1) a receptacle outlet must be installed in the wall countertop space.

Figured some of you might want the info.....As I stated before i support this interp.

 

[benaround]

Must be my lucky day, let me be the first to say 'good job, Mike Whitt' !!! I can only wish

that my understanding of the NEC is as sharp as your's.