Rommex Installation

[iwire]

Siding is an exterior covering (Chapter 7 of The Residential Code). It is applied to the outside of the structure. 334 NEC does not allow NM outside.

That is not what the NEC says and you know that.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Mike, it is your opinion firing strips are OK to be used outside?

Like these? 1X2X8 CEDAR FURRING STRIP http://www.lowes.com/pd_175694-65473-LBR-175694_?PL=1&productId=3017768

That is not what the NEC says and you know that.

OK. It says 334.12(A)(1) In any dwelling or structure not specifically permitted in 334.10(1), (2), and (3).

Where is it permitted to be outside?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Yes I am adamant about it. While a crawl may be damp, the NEC does not call it damp nor do I see that I can call it damp. There is no standard, like a % of moisture, for me to use.

yet somehow you have used that standard for under the siding. How many homes have tin roofs with nm cable run in the 3/4" sleepers. Is that outside the house? If the nm is attached to the joist in the attic close to the shingles is that outside the house? It seems siding and roofing is not that different but you are choosing that one is outside but not the other. IMO, you are totally inconsistent.

The nec does not call a crawl damp -- Why? because it normally is not wet or damp there. That is bull-- there is always moisture in a crawl space except for these new sealed crawls. I have been there with water dripping from the joist from condensation.

I guess the def. of dry location doesn't work under the siding. Do you really think this is a passageway for water and moisture? There will be more moisture at the dew point--

Siding is an exterior covering (Chapter 7 of The Residential Code). It is applied to the outside of the structure. 334 NEC does not allow NM outside.

Roofing is an exterior covering but the inside of the roof is not outside. :-?

I am sorry your logic seems to be totally inconsistent and outside the scope of the NEC, IMO. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[jxofaltrds]

yet somehow you have used that standard for under the siding. How many homes have tin roofs with nm cable run in the 3/4" sleepers. Is that outside the house? If the nm is attached to the joist in the attic close to the shingles is that outside the house? It seems siding and roofing is not that different but you are choosing that one is outside but not the other. IMO, you are totally inconsistent.

The nec does not call a crawl damp -- Why? because it normally is not wet or damp there. That is bull-- there is always moisture in a crawl space except for these new sealed crawls. I have been there with water dripping from the joist from condensation.

I guess the def. of dry location doesn't work under the siding. Do you really think this is a passageway for water and moisture? There will be more moisture at the dew point--

Roofing is an exterior covering but the inside of the roof is not outside. :-?

I am sorry your logic seems to be totally inconsistent and outside the scope of the NEC, IMO. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

The attic is a dry location. No it is not outside. You do not staple NM to the outside of the sheathing there either.

You are correct dry location does not apply to the area under the siding.

The building industry makes the rules not me.

http://www.awc.org/pdf/wcd1-300.pdf

Go to PP 41 and look at figs. 49 & 50. The building paper is there to protect the sheathing, keeping it dry! So why do you think that installing NM over it is code compliant?

 

[ike5547]

Like these? 1X2X8 CEDAR FURRING STRIP http://www.lowes.com/pd_175694-65473-LBR-175694_?PL=1&productId=3017768

Those are nice, but are not a requirement, as far as I know.

OK. It says 334.12(A)(1) In any dwelling or structure not specifically permitted in 334.10(1), (2), and (3).

Where is it permitted to be outside?

We are now required to prove a negative, or an un-negative, as the case may be when discussing the code? If it is not expressly permitted, it is prohibited by default?

Where is NM specifically permitted to be in crawl spaces?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

We are now required to prove a negative, or an un-negative, as the case may be when discussing the code? If it is not expressly permitted, it is prohibited by default?

I disagree, generally it the converse. If it is not prohibited then it is permitted.

 

[ike5547]

The argument seems to hinge on the felt paper.

To me, there seems that there is a reason for the conscious inclusion of the word 'excessive' in 334.12(B)(4). Wood vs. NM require differing degrees of protection and don't merit identical treatment in this regard. I believe this argument against NM under siding is extremely tenuous and you've gone far, far out of your way to cobble it together.

I, also, agree to disagree until a truly authoritative source says otherwise.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Would you install Type AC behind the siding?

 

[ike5547]

Would you install Type AC behind the siding?

That's an interesting question. No, I wouldn't, based on what I've learned here today. And I don't think I would have before today, either. The uses not permitted state "damp locations."

I've never even considered it before. I'd have to think more about it. No, I wouldn't -- for personal reasons if nothing else.

Would you allow it under a crawl space?

 

[jxofaltrds]

That's an interesting question. No, I wouldn't, based on what I've learned here today. And I don't think I would have before today, either. The uses not permitted state "damp locations."

I've never even considered it before. I'd have to think more about it. No, I wouldn't -- for personal reasons if nothing else.

Would you allow it under a crawl space?

I see nothing that would prohibit it.

 

[ike5547]

I see nothing that would prohibit it.

Neither do I.

And I'm interested to hear other opinions on the type AC thing. You seem to have a strong point there.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Mike, it is your opinion firing strips are OK to be used outside?

They are not outside after sideing is installed

 

[jxofaltrds]

Neither do I.

And I'm interested to hear other opinions on the type AC thing. You seem to have a strong point there.

Hold on. I've changed my mind on this area being 'outside'. If it was outside you would be able to install service conductors under it.

I still believe it to be a damp location.

 

[glene77is]

Do I understand this correctly (can't quote the code right now)
that Rommex if installed on an exterior wall with furring strip
needs to be protected either by conduit or a plate?

(Originally posted by) Strife,

Please explain your posted question more fully.

Maybe make a little diagram.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Hold on. I've changed my mind on this area being 'outside'. If it was outside you would be able to install service conductors under it.

I still believe it to be a damp location.

Mike this is exactly what I was saying earlier. You have the building code that you adamantly stood behind now that you don't like the way it fits in the NEC you change your mind. You can't just take pieces-- if the building code is your bible then you must allow se cable under the siding but instead you decide that it doesn't work so well in a more important situation so you change your thinking. The code still says what it says. You are totally inconsistent and make the codes fit your view. That , IMO, is not a good way to inspect.

Also, the area under the siding fits very nicely with the definition of dry location but you will not honor that because you are stuck in your thinking. I am sorry if I sound harsh- I tried to word it so that it wasn't harsh but I feel honesty is important also--

 

[jxofaltrds]

Mike this is exactly what I was saying earlier. You have the building code that you adamantly stood behind now that you don't like the way it fits in the NEC you change your mind. You can't just take pieces-- if the building code is your bible then you must allow se cable under the siding but instead you decide that it doesn't work so well in a more important situation so you change your thinking. The code still says what it says. You are totally inconsistent and make the codes fit your view. That , IMO, is not a good way to inspect.

Also, the area under the siding fits very nicely with the definition of dry location but you will not honor that because you are stuck in your thinking. I am sorry if I sound harsh- I tried to word it so that it wasn't harsh but I feel honesty is important also--

Before I thought I was right now I know I am. I consider the area damp because of the information that I posted earlier.

How I inspect is much different than how we discuss things here.

 

[pete m.]

Since this thread is "splitting hairs"...

Would anyone consider the interior of a NEMA 3R disconnect to be a "damp location"?

The reason for the question is that typically the NM cable passes from the interior of the structure through vapor barriers, siding, brick, etc.. and into the back of the disconnect that may serve the condensing unit.

If it is determined that NM cable cannot be used outside then how is it that it is able to be utilized for the purpose stated above?

Pete

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Since this thread is "splitting hairs"...

Would anyone consider the interior of a NEMA 3R disconnect to be a "damp location"?

The reason for the question is that typically the NM cable passes from the interior of the structure through vapor barriers, siding, brick, etc.. and into the back of the disconnect that may serve the condensing unit.

If it is determined that NM cable cannot be used outside then how is it that it is able to be utilized for the purpose stated above?

Pete

You just had to open up that can of worms LOL

 

[pete m.]

You just had to open up that can of worms LOL

At an Ohio Chapter meeting of the IAEI I asked this same question... and we had worms everywhere:grin:

Pete

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I think nm cable should be listed for damp location. I cannot understand why it isn't. Like I said, there are thousands of crawl spaces I would consider damp.