Tell me it's not so...Has our trade hit bottom with prices?????

[staticcontrol]

Hello,

I'm in NJ. Can someone please tell me what the going rate for devices are when roughing a house. Just a few examples are needed to see where we were and where we are. It's helpful to all of us.

Then: outlets $65 ea rough & trim
Switches $70 ea. rough & trim
Dedicated circuit 15 amp...$160- $180.

What are you guys doing in NJ or other states? I have spoken to others and I couldn't believe what I heard. I trust this forum. What is the going rate please with some of your examples. Our trade is much more valuable then most consider.

I believe builders are driving our market down by constantly seeking bids which makes "US" compete and drop prices. How low is too low friends?

Concerned.

 

[kwired]

That is how business works. If you can't afford to lower prices then don't. Somebody with a bigger checkbook will take jobs at lower profit but they have enough jobs they still get by. The small guy has to sell something other than a low price or he will go out of business. True he will not get every job he wants. He will work for people that want his work however. This will lead to more work from same customer or even referrals to others by that customer.

You do same thing when you shop for goods or services. Sometimes you buy cheapest thing you can other times you want better quality but understand it will cost more.

Would you like to work 80 hours/week at low profits or 40 hours at twice the rate with the same net? In reality may not work quite like that but it is not too bizarre of a thought.

 

[K8MHZ]

I was #1 in my 40 student apprenticeship class. As soon as I topped out, the economy put the screws to the skilled trades. My status in school meant nothing.

I refuse to work for sub standard pay and have gone back to college.

Pity, but being a skilled trades person is no longer a means to a tolerable life for a significant portion of our craftspeople.

 

[satcom]

I was #1 in my 40 student apprenticeship class. As soon as I topped out, the economy put the screws to the skilled trades. My status in school meant nothing.

I refuse to work for sub standard pay and have gone back to college.

Pity, but being a skilled trades person is no longer a means to a tolerable life for a significant portion of our craftspeople.

If your a skilled trade in these tough times, i would not say give up the dream but rather continue with your education.and look to position yourself in a field that offers positions with advancement and a great salary

 

[Dennis Alwon]

IMO, we are in this for a while. I feel sorry for the young folks who go to college and come out and can't find a job. It wasn't like that in my early years. Things are still busy here but it is up and down.

 

[480sparky]

It's not the builders who are driving down the price. It's the out-of-work people who feel their only choice is to work for slave wages just to pay their bills. The problem is, they don't charge enough to stay in business, so they're just a flash in the pan and easily replaced by the next down-and-out sparky. He works cheap until he gets his old job back. Then someone else comes along and will work for even less because he's far more desperate.

Next thing you know, builders are trained to believe any house can be wired for $2000.

 

[goldstar]

Being from NJ myself I've found that prices will vary depending on the county you're working in (we've had this discussion here in the forum before). For example, the going price fopr a std. 200 amp service (SE cable, panel in garage, ground rods and water main fairly close by, etc) in Bergen County will go for $2800-3200. Move one county over to Passaic and the ave. price drops to $2200-$2800. Move another county over to Morris and the price drops again. From what I remember about the last time we talked about this, when you move down to the shore communities the prices drop even more. What I have a hard time comprehending is that the cost of material is all relatively the same no matter where you buy. The only variable then becomes labor. There are guys out there who are willing and thankful to make themselves $500.00 for the day. I know times are tough but if that is what the future of our trade holds in store I'll be retiring my tools and working for Home Depot sooner than I think.

Speaking about Home Depot, next time you're in there take a few moments to look around while you're in the electrical section and take notice as to who is buying what. If you see a homeowner buying a receptacle or a cover plate - no big deal. However, when you see someone who appears not to be sure as to what they are buying, and begin putting breaker panels and SE cable in their carts - be very, very afraid.

Another thing I'd like to say is that we (as electricians in general) don't stick together as a trade. We seem to cut each other's throat at the drop of a hat. Many of us (perhaps those newer in the trade) aren't aware of what the going prices are on various types of work and often mis-bid a job. My advice - do some research or join a trade association to get an education before placing your bid Try getting a plumber out to your house to change out a washer. The going price up here is about $125.00/hr. We have guys changing out receptacles for $10.00 @:?

Finally, if you're working for a builder don't plan on buying that boat just yet. You're not making any money. They're making all the money - you're not allowed to make any money. And if you lowered that price to try and get the job, hold onto your seat because some hoakie working on the side just under-bid you.

BTW, not to get off subject here, but if you believe someone is contracting electrical work with the public and they are not licensed, you are morally obligated to turn them in. It's a 4th degree felony here in NJ and the fine is $1000.00 - first offense.

OK. Off the soap box now

 

[realolman]

.....There are guys out there who are willing and thankful to make themselves $500.00 for the day. I know times are tough but if that is what the future of our trade holds in store I'll be retiring my tools and working for Home Depot sooner than I think......

I would be thrilled to make 500 bucks a day.
Where is there a Home Depot that pays 62 bucks an hour?:?

K8MHZ

I was #1 in my 40 student apprenticeship class. As soon as I topped out, the economy put the screws to the skilled trades. My status in school meant nothing.

I refuse to work for sub standard pay and have gone back to college.

Pity, but being a skilled trades person is no longer a means to a tolerable life for a significant portion of our craftspeople.​

You are so right there. You think your status in school meaning nothing is hard to swallow. .. wait till you've worked for thirty some years and some new corporation takes over your company.

The economy and corporations are killing the middle class.

I know that there will be many of you who will be riled by this , but I firmly believe it. This Arc flash stuff is just one more way... and it is a big way... in which you will be able to make the skilled worker less skilled, make him more of a faceless body, and put the same guy who worked in WalMart last week in a moon suit and he will be an electrician this week. Think what you like ,they are not going to pay him at the electrician rate.

My company in the midst of being taken over by the fourth corporation in about 18 years. Every thing is presented in the name of safety, security, blah blah, blah, but it's underlying agenda is worker control, de-skilling, and lower take home pay. There is not one thing that has not gotten worse for the worker in any takeover. They use technology against us as if we were some kind of enemy.

Trust me , I am not some sort of Luddite. I embrace technology, and am probably far more knowledgeable than most, but these corporations always use it for the wrong stuff.

 

[goldstar]

I would be thrilled to make 500 bucks a day.
Where is there a Home Depot that pays 62 bucks an hour?:?

If the $500.00 represented just your salary, you now have to pay for insurance, your truck, maintenance on your truck, $$ it costs to maintain your licence and business permit, etc. By the end of the day if all you're looking for is a few bucks to stay alive then why go through all the trouble of being in business for yourself ? Might as well work for HD and not have any of the headaches.

That's what I meant by my comment. I think you read more into it than what I meant. If not, then maybe you're one of the trunk slammers we always compalin about.

 

[satcom]

If the $500.00 represented just your salary, you now have to pay for insurance, your truck, maintenance on your truck, $$ it costs to maintain your licence and business permit, etc. By the end of the day if all you're looking for is a few bucks to stay alive then why go through all the trouble of being in business for yourself ? Might as well work for HD and not have any of the headaches.

That's what I meant by my comment. I think you read more into it than what I meant. If not, then maybe you're one of the trunk slammers we always compalin about.

Wow, have you got that right, we see it every day someone gets a license, and basic liability coverage and they are in business, and thinks that the $500 a day is all theirs, and in most cases for some guys it is theirs, they think their truck is going to last for ever, and what the heck, i would have to pay for the gas and repairs anyway, comp insurance why would a homeowner what me to have that, and i will never get injured, pay taxes and get permits, you must be kidding, I am a small guy, that does not apply to me, build a line of credit is crazy I will always have cash to pay everything, there is no need to pay into any state or federal taxes or funds, 500 a day is some areas would not pay even the most modest overhead and operating expenes, and you would be working for nothing.

 

[infinity]

If the $500.00 represented just your salary, you now have to pay for insurance, your truck, maintenance on your truck, $$ it costs to maintain your license and business permit, etc. By the end of the day if all you're looking for is a few bucks to stay alive then why go through all the trouble of being in business for yourself ? Might as well work for HD and not have any of the headaches.

That's what I meant by my comment. I think you read more into it than what I meant. If not, then maybe you're one of the trunk slammers we always complain about.

I agree, as a business owner you can't live around here and earn only $500 a day. The sad reality is that you're competing with an element that is using cheap, less skilled labor. Unless customers are willing to pay more for skill and quality work I'm starting to think that the only real way to be profitable is to do the same, which is kind of sad.

 

[realolman]

If the $500.00 represented just your salary, you now have to pay for insurance, your truck, maintenance on your truck, $$ it costs to maintain your licence and business permit, etc. By the end of the day if all you're looking for is a few bucks to stay alive then why go through all the trouble of being in business for yourself ? Might as well work for HD and not have any of the headaches.

That's what I meant by my comment. I think you read more into it than what I meant. If not, then maybe you're one of the trunk slammers we always compalin about.

One of the things that bugs me about sparkys is that they often seem to have some sort of arrogant attitude toward other people.

I'm not a "trunk slammer". I am however a big DIY er. I guess that's another bad word. It is just about impossible to get contractors to do much of anything. You always have to wait. They don't return your calls, they move in, make a big mess, and then you don't see them or hear from them again for months.

If you are doing something that a "trunk slammer" or a DIY er can do, then I don't know how much you can expect to make. If you are doing the kinds of things I described in my earlier paragraph, maybe you should look into that.

I have no idea what it would take for a single person to stay in business but never having worked at HD, I'd be willing to bet that they have their own set of problems that would make your 500 bucks a day, even before expenses, look pretty good.

 

[satcom]

One of the things that bugs me about sparkys is that they often seem to have some sort of arrogant attitude toward other people.

I'm not a "trunk slammer". I am however a big DIY er. I guess that's another bad word. It is just about impossible to get contractors to do much of anything. You always have to wait. They don't return your calls, they move in, make a big mess, and then you don't see them or hear from them again for months.

If you are doing something that a "trunk slammer" or a DIY er can do, then I don't know how much you can expect to make. If you are doing the kinds of things I described in my earlier paragraph, maybe you should look into that.

I have no idea what it would take for a single person to stay in business but never having worked at HD, I'd be willing to bet that they have their own set of problems that would make your 500 bucks a day, even before expenses, look pretty good.

if you call just about any electrical contractor in my state they will not only answer the phone, but they will take great care not to leave a mess, your confused with the illegal contractors, the trunk slammer mob, and to stay in business, it is not called problems it is real and true costs called overhead and every ligit business had them.

On the salary issue $500 a day is common in my area a good percent of the police and fire get at or above that salary along with supervisors on county and state jobs, and in todays market $500 a day in most professional work may be on the low side.

 

[flyboy]

Being from NJ myself I've found that prices will vary depending on the county you're working in (we've had this discussion here in the forum before). For example, the going price fopr a std. 200 amp service (SE cable, panel in garage, ground rods and water main fairly close by, etc) in Bergen County will go for $2800-3200. Move one county over to Passaic and the ave. price drops to $2200-$2800. Move another county over to Morris and the price drops again. From what I remember about the last time we talked about this, when you move down to the shore communities the prices drop even more.

Nothing new here, electricians (contractors) have been saying this as far back as I can remember (1970). I started out in Riverdale, NJ. Our prices for the service you described above starts at $3,200 and I'm up here in the sticks. All my competition is lower, but we take jobs from them all the time. Customers want value for their money, not necessarrily is it always the lowest price.

What I have a hard time comprehending is that the cost of material is all relatively the same no matter where you buy. The only variable then becomes labor. There are guys out there who are willing and thankful to make themselves $500.00 for the day. I know times are tough but if that is what the future of our trade holds in store I'll be retiring my tools and working for Home Depot sooner than I think.

Same thing, nothing new here. Only we didn't have Home Depots in our market. It's never going change, ever. Stop worrying about those guys, they eventually go out of business. The best thing you can do is build your own brand and customer base so customers come only to you.

Speaking about Home Depot, next time you're in there take a few moments to look around while you're in the electrical section and take notice as to who is buying what. If you see a homeowner buying a receptacle or a cover plate - no big deal. However, when you see someone who appears not to be sure as to what they are buying, and begin putting breaker panels and SE cable in their carts - be very, very afraid.

Afraid of what? That they are going to kill themselves or burn their house down? Or that your going to have to redo their installation?

Another thing I'd like to say is that we (as electricians in general) don't stick together as a trade.

True, they never have and they never will, ever. So, why worry about it? It's a given. When you focus your attention on the things you can control is when you will start making money in this business.

We seem to cut each other's throat at the drop of a hat. Many of us (perhaps those newer in the trade) aren't aware of what the going prices are on various types of work and often mis-bid a job.

That's because most contractors sell on price, instead of building relationships with customers and selling value. Those who are cutting price are oblivious as to how to run a profitable company. Moreover, they are not really interested in learning either. It's easier to just complain about things and blame their problems on circumstances they can't change instead of learning how to become a successful business owner.

BTW, there is no such thing as the "going price". Prices must be arrived at by using a formulae that identifies your billable efficiency, direct cost, overhead and your desired profit. The "going price" will never allow you to make money in this business. Most contractors don't have a clue on how to price themselves.

Finally, if you're working for a builder don't plan on buying that boat just yet. You're not making any money. They're making all the money - you're not allowed to make any money. And if you lowered that price to try and get the job, hold onto your seat because some hoakie working on the side just under-bid you.

Couldn't agree more; but again, nothing new here. Why bother working for them. I haven't in over 20 years.

BTW, not to get off subject here, but if you believe someone is contracting electrical work with the public and they are not licensed, you are morally obligated to turn them in. It's a 4th degree felony here in NJ and the fine is $1000.00 - first offense.

Morally obligated? Although I totally agree there are unlicensed contractors, I don't think your morally obligated to do something that is a total waste of time. If your doing the things necessary to make your business successful you don't have time for it.

OK. Off the soap box now

I have to get someone to help me down.

Cheers!

 

[satcom]

Nothing new here, electricians (contractors) have been saying this as far back as I can remember (1970). I started out in Riverdale, NJ. Our prices for the service you described above starts at $3,200 and I'm up here in the sticks. All my competition is lower, but we take jobs from them all the time. Customers want value for their money, not necessarrily is it always the lowest price.


True, they never have and they never will, ever. So, why worry about it? It's a given. When you focus your attention on the things you can control is when you will start making money in this business.


That's because most contractors sell on price, instead of building relationships with customers and selling value. Those who are cutting price are oblivious as to how to run a profitable company. Moreover, they are not really interested in learning either. It's easier to just complain about things and blame their problems on circumstances they can't change instead of learning how to become a successful business owner.

BTW, there is no such thing as the "going price". Prices must be arrived at by using a formulae that identifies your billable efficiency, direct cost, overhead and your desired profit. The "going price" will never allow you to make money in this business. Most contractors don't have a clue on how to price themselves.


Couldn't agree more; but again, nothing new here. Why bother working for them. I haven't in over 20 years.

You have the right view of it all

 

[kwired]

One of the things that bugs me about sparkys is that they often seem to have some sort of arrogant attitude toward other people.

I'm not a "trunk slammer". I am however a big DIY er. I guess that's another bad word. It is just about impossible to get contractors to do much of anything. You always have to wait. They don't return your calls, they move in, make a big mess, and then you don't see them or hear from them again for months.

If you are doing something that a "trunk slammer" or a DIY er can do, then I don't know how much you can expect to make. If you are doing the kinds of things I described in my earlier paragraph, maybe you should look into that.

I have no idea what it would take for a single person to stay in business but never having worked at HD, I'd be willing to bet that they have their own set of problems that would make your 500 bucks a day, even before expenses, look pretty good.

The thing about being an owner, manager, or someone else high on the chain of command is that when you are done working for the day your work doesn't always leave you.

With the lower guys working for a contractor, or working at HD, or somplace like that they typically do earn a lower income. They usually have somewhat fixed income but when work is done for the day they are done until they show up the next time they are scheduled to work.

It is this way in any work environment. The more you get paid the more responsibilities you generally have. Owners and managers have the additional risk of losing money if they make bad decisions, it goes with the job.

 

[SBuck]

I am in Wisconsin and just started. I am union so my employees wages are set. My resi service rate is 52 and my com/ind is 68. I am not sure why everyone is so hush hush on rates. Everyone in business calls all other businesses of the same type to see what they charge. The figures I came up with are based on my costs but I used everyone else as a maximum.

 

[Electric-Light]

Another thing I'd like to say is that we (as electricians in general) don't stick together as a trade. We seem to cut each other's throat at the drop of a hat. Many of us (perhaps those newer in the trade) aren't aware of what the going prices are on various types of work and often mis-bid a job. My advice - do some research or join a trade association to get an education before placing your bid Try getting a plumber out to your house to change out a washer. The going price up here is about $125.00/hr. We have guys changing out receptacles for $10.00 @:?

What do you mean by "sticking together"? If you meant keeping prices high just to make everyone profitable by unspoken rule, we call that collusion. Cutting eachother's throat through bid war is what free market is really about.

 

[goldstar]

What do you mean by "sticking together"? If you meant keeping prices high just to make everyone profitable by unspoken rule, we call that collusion. Cutting each other's throat through bid war is what free market is really about.

Not looking to start a cartel here. It appears that some of us here in the forum don't like the term "going price" so (for argument's sake) let's just say that prices for a 200 amp service generally run between $2400 - $2800 in my area. What kind of idiot would bid $1600 to do the job and leave all that money on the table. If you want to shave a few dollars off to beat a competitors price - that's great. But, why would you shave $800-$1200 off your price ? Is that what free market is about, or is that lazyness for not doing a market study or just plain stupidity:?

What I meant by sticking together was that if the per hour rate in your area is say $95.00/hr. If you wanted to beat my price and charge $90.00/hr and that fit into your business plan - go for it. But why would you charge $50.00/hr ? All it serves to do is classify you as a bottom feeder or a trunk slammer. It's not a question of artificially inflating the prices. It's a question of whether you'll make enough money to pay for your material and your bills and have enough money left over to take your wife out to dinner at the end of the day. It's a question of whether you can put a few dollars away toward retirement or whether you'll run out of money at the end of the week and end up on the unemployment line. It's a question of whether you want to barbaque and eat a steak on your back deck or stop off at the soup kitchen on the way home to your hovel. It's a question of whether you can work intelligently and get paid properly for what you do or you can just be a dope and work for a small hourly wage.

There are lots of guys out there that are busy as hell. They're not making any money and they're working their tails off and complaining that the market fell out from under them.

 

[480sparky]

Not looking to start a cartel here..............

I don't think you really need to worry about established EC cutting their prices in half. They already know their costs, and how to calculate a profitable price.

It's all the out-of-work JWs and apprentices who flood Craigslist and the bulletin boards at the grocery stores working for pauper's wages....... that's the biggest problem I see. They aren't licensed, they don't pay for insurance, and they couldn't care less about bennies.... they think roping a house for $150 a day is a king's ransom.