Tell me it's not so...Has our trade hit bottom with prices?????

[kwired]

I personally don't have the same overhead (in many cases that is just a fancy name for debt) as others. I believe that if you start small and build your way up honestly, work hard, and build a nice clientele then it will all work out for the best. I don't believe this in all cases, but sometimes the lower price can be the honest price. I think that we get to wrapped in the "quality" of work, when in reality, it is not quality that we are always after, it is a higher material cost which leads to a higher mark up and a greater excuse for a higher profit. It may not be that way in all cases, but it is there. So, in short, be a true business man and those who not will be found out.

Overhead and debt are not the same thing. Debt can be part of overhead but reoccuring expenses are overhead but they are not debt. If they go unpaid they can turn in to debt.

 

[bradleyelectric]

Overhead and debt are not the same thing. Debt can be part of overhead but reoccuring expenses are overhead but they are not debt. If they go unpaid they can turn in to debt.

And yet he wants to tell you what "a true business man" is

 

[kwired]

.... I think that we get to wrapped in the "quality" of work, when in reality, it is not quality that we are always after, it is a higher material cost which leads to a higher mark up and a greater excuse for a higher profit...

I have found the best way to sell higher cost materials which leads to higher markup is to avoid residential work.

Selling three phase panels, motor starters, safety switches and associated controls makes money a lot faster just in markup than wiring even up to 2500 square foot homes. Your customers also get lost faster with this type of work and don't try to tell you how you should be doing it either. Codes are simpler with most of this work than they are for typical dwelling - especially since about the 2002 code.

 

[cdslotz]

I have found the best way to sell higher cost materials which leads to higher markup is to avoid residential work.

Selling three phase panels, motor starters, safety switches and associated controls makes money a lot faster just in markup than wiring even up to 2500 square foot homes. Your customers also get lost faster with this type of work and don't try to tell you how you should be doing it either. Codes are simpler with most of this work than they are for typical dwelling - especially since about the 2002 code.

Yep. Selling materials is the best protection of labor and overhead.
The average commercial project is approx 3 to 1 material/labor ratio (dollars).
I love jobs with high end fixtures, gear, generator, fire alarm, lightning protection, grounding, independent testing, etc.
Very low risk with a normal markup.

 

[satcom]

Yep. Selling materials is the best protection of labor and overhead.
The average commercial project is approx 3 to 1 material/labor ratio (dollars).
I love jobs with high end fixtures, gear, generator, fire alarm, lightning protection, grounding, independent testing, etc.
Very low risk with a normal markup.

The Service companies have been charging higher rates and larger markup's on both residential and commercial work, and their companies are growing even in these tough times, I was told years ago they would eat everyones lunch including the low ballers, and they have been doing just that, simply by following basic business practices.

 

[growler]

This Arc flash stuff is just one more way... and it is a big way... in which you will be able to make the skilled worker less skilled, make him more of a faceless body, and put the same guy who worked in WalMart last week in a moon suit and he will be an electrician this week. Think what you like ,they are not going to pay him at the electrician rate.

My company in the midst of being taken over by the fourth corporation in about 18 years. Every thing is presented in the name of safety, security, blah blah, blah, but it's underlying agenda is worker control, de-skilling, and lower take home pay. There is not one thing that has not gotten worse for the worker in any takeover. They use techno

I really don't get your point here. From my personal experience it was always companies that were not safety concious that were the lowest paying.

Knowing how to use the proper safety equipment should not be considered a lesser skill. Any idiot can take chances . A professional should never take chances.

I do agee that companies are trying to pay less but that has nothing to do with safety. Arc Flash is a real hazard and I'm all for safety ( I have seen electricians get burned and it's not good).

 

[petersonra]

$500/day, $130K/yr, minus...

Insurance (health + liability)
Taxes
Truck expense
Inventory
Paid vacation
Admin costs, non-billable time

Maybe $60K if you're lucky.

$60k might not be all that bad in the current survival mode many people have found themselves in. I am not recomending people aim for that. but reality is that many times it is quite possible to survive on less for a few lean years until times get better.

Vacations for the owner are for when you can afford to take them. So is new equipment when the old stuff is still servicable or it is possible to buy perfectly usable pre-owned stuff at pennies on the dollar.

40 hours a week is not typical for very many small business owners. 60 is more typical.

 

[kwired]

$60k might not be all that bad in the current survival mode many people have found themselves in. I am not recomending people aim for that. but reality is that many times it is quite possible to survive on less for a few lean years until times get better.

Vacations for the owner are for when you can afford to take them. So is new equipment when the old stuff is still servicable or it is possible to buy perfectly usable pre-owned stuff at pennies on the dollar.

40 hours a week is not typical for very many small business owners. 60 is more typical.

If you can afford it now, is the time to buy used equipment, especially heavy equipment, manlifts, telehandlers, excavators, there are people that need to get rid of them and will do so at reasonable cost to the buyer.

Does your 60 hours mean 60 hours of service and installation, plus another 10 or more in the office or just 60 hours for everything. You have to have a life sometime, maybe your family would like to see you do something that is not work sometimes, kids grow up fast and you will miss all the good stuff.

 

[stevenje]

Does your 60 hours mean 60 hours of service and installation, plus another 10 or more in the office or just 60 hours for everything. You have to have a life sometime, maybe your family would like to see you do something that is not work sometimes, kids grow up fast and you will miss all the good stuff.

It can become all consuming. It is all about keeping balance, which in itself can be a full time job. Stop from time to time and ask yourself, do you live to work or work to live. I strive for the latter but often am unknowingly steered to the first.

 

[staticcontrol]

I'm the original OP from NJ who started this.......

I'm the original OP from NJ who started this.......

Hi,

It's been interesting to read all of your thoughts since last week. Since over 2,000 have either read these pages or scanned them is cause for action.

If I may cut to the chase.......BOTTOM LINE-- We are all in business to make a PROFIT. Hoping all has integrity and actually cares about a clean, quality install of what ever you do. I have taken about 30 pictures since 3 months ago o jobs I go to. I can't believe the slop I see. Take a fan down to install a new one and SURPRISE....no FAN BOX. Toggle bolt through sheet rock etc.

2 thoughts: People say what we do is simple. I hear it all the time. Customers tell me and I'm sure you, that it will take you 15 minutes to do something.

Hardly the case. Install what you do right and LETS ALL ESTABLISH A GOING RATE TO LIVE UP TOO. NOT UNDERCUT EACH OTHER BY $40- $50 dollars and hour. Also, stand up to builders. If he wants to pay you $30 per outlet.....WALK AWAY!!! We collectively need to steer out trade in a profitable direction. Not let someone or company cheapen our profession.

I'm proud to say.....I don't take jobs that are not worth it. Because I value our profession.

GOOD LUCK!!!!!!! START NOW!!! Nothing less than $90/hr service work.. Nothing less than $70 an outlet.

staticcontrol

 

[kwired]

2 thoughts: People say what we do is simple. I hear it all the time. Customers tell me and I'm sure you, that it will take you 15 minutes to do something.

I think it is simple but I do it every day. I don't know how many times I have stood in front of a panel with wires not yet terminated and am asked how I know what all of those are for or where they need to go.

I do get the "it won't take you very long" plea but it is usually an attempt for them to get me to schedule them in thinking that I have so many 15 minute holes in my day that I can just drop everything else and go take care of their need. I also have had many times where I myself was expecting 15 - 30 minutes to do something and it ends up taking 3 or more hours. On top of the 15 minutes if you do actually only spend that time fixing or installing something you have drive time, picking up/loading supplies, billing time. I have driven 20-30 miles only to reset a breaker or GFCI or overload device, turn on a switch, plug in a cord, or some other incredibly simple problem. Sometimes our work is simple.

 

[petersonra]

Hi,
Hardly the case. Install what you do right and LETS ALL ESTABLISH A GOING RATE TO LIVE UP TOO. NOT UNDERCUT EACH OTHER BY $40- $50 dollars and hour.

Do you realize that you are soliciting others to commit a federal crime?

Collusion to raise prices is indeed a crime. As it should be.

These things tend to sort themselves out over time.

Don't work yourself up into a tizzy over a temporary condition that may be gone in a year or two or three.

If someone can figure out how to profitably install an outlet for $20, more power to them.

 

[kwired]

Do you realize that you are soliciting others to commit a federal crime?

Collusion to raise prices is indeed a crime. As it should be.

These things tend to sort themselves out over time.

Don't work yourself up into a tizzy over a temporary condition that may be gone in a year or two or three.

If someone can figure out how to profitably install an outlet for $20, more power to them.

They eventually find out it is not profitable to install an outlet for $20, or they are doing things illegally. Even if illegal they likely are not profiting for $20 an outlet unless maybe all materials are stolen.

 

[petersonra]

They eventually find out it is not profitable to install an outlet for $20, or they are doing things illegally. Even if illegal they likely are not profiting for $20 an outlet unless maybe all materials are stolen.

I am not seriously suggesting someone could make a profit at $20 a pop for outlets, but if they could, everyone else would need to adjust to that new reality.

I bet it could be done. Probably part of a molded plastic interior wall that gets put in place as an assembly rather than stick built.

 

[Electric-Light]

Get caught in collusion and all those involved are going to be black list contractors for government jobs. I don't remember the links, but there are federal GSA do not use and some states have lists of blacklisted contractors for things like unresolved contractual dispute, fraud, delinquent taxes, and whatever. There was one that was on "do not allow" list for several hundred dollars owed to the state.

 

[Electric-Light]

Hi,
GOOD LUCK!!!!!!! START NOW!!! Nothing less than $90/hr service work.. Nothing less than $70 an outlet.
staticcontrol

Why don't you just set up a vending machine in front of your shop and open it up to the public and make each 20oz bottle of soda $4.00?

That might work middle of the desert, but anyone who's smart enough will look at the price and walkaway.

 

[kwired]

Why don't you just set up a vending machine in front of your shop and open it up to the public and make each 20oz bottle of soda $4.00?

That might work middle of the desert, but anyone who's smart enough will look at the price and walkaway.

That is about the way it is in sports arenas, staduims, or other similar venues. You can't bring your own food or drink in and have to buy from the concessions and they are not cheap. I wish I were the person who decided that it was a good idea to bottle water and sell it. Most abundant resource on the planet and it sells for more than gasoline.:happysad:

 

[staticcontrol]

NO CRIME COMMITED!!! Ridiculous post

NO CRIME COMMITED!!! Ridiculous post

Do you realize that you are soliciting others to commit a federal crime?

Collusion to raise prices is indeed a crime. As it should be.

These things tend to sort themselves out over time.

Don't work yourself up into a tizzy over a temporary condition that may be gone in a year or two or three.

If someone can figure out how to profitably install an outlet for $20, more power to them.

I simply know the value of what we do and have done the calculations of overhead, material, etc etc. I know the cost to run MY business. Not Your business but even if your licensed and work out of your pick up truck or have 3 vans etc..the value for something should be consistent. Almost looks as though we are ripping people off if you compare $20 to $70. I want to provide for myself, my family and my team of dedicated employees who do things the way it should be done. You think Doctors under cut..NO!! Landscapers?!!! NO! Home Theater Guys.. NO? Not like we do. My plight is unchanged.....establish at least a going rate. Perhaps you're ok with getting $20 an outlet. If so, where are you living and what are you living in?

Jersey Strong!!!!!!

 

[Strife]

I agree.
I love changing fl/hid ballasts and HID lamps.
I buy the 4 lamp F32T8 ballast for $ 16.00. Home Depot sells it for 39. I sell it for 37.
3 Phase breakers, especially bolt on and main breakers are good also. Because home depot doesn't sell them and there's still a large gap between what my vendor sells to me VS retail. I can buy a 3P60A bolt on GE for about 67 whereas the retail is 130+.
But there a lot of other items where I feel the vendors betray us. And there are a lot of vendors who charge retail almost as much as they charge wholesale. This shouldn't be. I don't like when I give a vendor 200K business a year and he turns around and sells same price to someone who buys a 10 dollar item.

I have found the best way to sell higher cost materials which leads to higher markup is to avoid residential work.

Selling three phase panels, motor starters, safety switches and associated controls makes money a lot faster just in markup than wiring even up to 2500 square foot homes. Your customers also get lost faster with this type of work and don't try to tell you how you should be doing it either. Codes are simpler with most of this work than they are for typical dwelling - especially since about the 2002 code.

 

[Strife]

I get that all the times.
My answer is always the same :" If you think it can be done in 15 minutes why don't you do it? And if you know better than me what it takes to do something, why did you call me?"
I had a relative of mine who's got a shop and he wanted several machines wired. I gave him a very low price per hr, but it was still 300+ hrs. He claimed it shouldn't take that long and wanted me to use his people (which were good with tools, but not much electrical experience. yet he thought I'm inflating the hrs.). After 4 days he complained that his people cost him too much. Basically if I was to finish with his people I was gonna owe him money.

Hi,

2 thoughts: People say what we do is simple. I hear it all the time. Customers tell me and I'm sure you, that it will take you 15 minutes to do something.

staticcontrol