Tell me it's not so...Has our trade hit bottom with prices?????

[goldstar]

But there a lot of other items where I feel the vendors betray us. And there are a lot of vendors who charge retail almost as much as they charge wholesale. This shouldn't be. I don't like when I give a vendor 200K business a year and he turns around and sells same price to someone who buys a 10 dollar item.

I agree. Especially when I pay my bills within 10 days, all I'm getting is the 2% discount (for the better supply houses) but for which I'm grateful anyway. I try to support my supply houses whenever I can but when there's a great disparity in $$ I have to go to Big Orange.

I once quoted someone a price for a wall-washer recessed fixture. I bumped the price up about 20% (material only). He then drove to the same supply house and bought it for the same price they would have sold it to me for believing that he got a bargain. So I told him that if there were any defects he would bear the responsibility and that it would still cost him $$ for me to install it. He got ticked off when I told him that I don't buy material for $1.00 and sell if for $1.00.:roll:

 

[Strife]

That's true also.
I get all the time customers telling me they can buy the same fixture for same price from HD. I tell them to go ahead and buy it, but don't call me for warranty, go to home depot. When their eye get bulge I tell them my mark up includes warranty. If they don't want the warranty they can buy it themself.

I agree. Especially when I pay my bills within 10 days, all I'm getting is the 2% discount (for the better supply houses) but for which I'm grateful anyway. I try to support my supply houses whenever I can but when there's a great disparity in $$ I have to go to Big Orange.

I once quoted someone a price for a wall-washer recessed fixture. I bumped the price up about 20% (material only). He then drove to the same supply house and bought it for the same price they would have sold it to me for believing that he got a bargain. So I told him that if there were any defects he would bear the responsibility and that it would still cost him $$ for me to install it. He got ticked off when I told him that I don't buy material for $1.00 and sell if for $1.00.:roll:

 

[kwired]

Ask same people if when they go to a restaurant if they bring their own food and ask the staff it they can cook it for them at a lesser price then they would spend for same item off the menu.

I hate when they purchase a bunch of supplies and expect you to use them. May be sufficient products but not what you would prefer to use, or maybe some things you can't use at all.

 

[renosteinke]

I've been getting prices from some window contractors lately. Let's look to these experiences for lessons we might be able to use ...

Contractor A sent some kid out to measure, and three days later they e-mailed me a price on the one type of window they used. That's it.

Contractor W sent a guy out who not only measured, he checked for square.He tested for lead paint, pretty much complying with the 'textbook' methods. He then worked up pricing on the window he recommended, and proceeded to explain what factors would increase the price, or reduce it. Yes, there were things I could do - like remove the storm windows - that would reduce my price. Finally, he explained some of the options and other window types that his firm offered. His earlier price was not on his most expensive, nor his cheapest window; his selection was apparently based on my intended use of the property. His description of the windows, and the literature provided, highlighted just how his windows differed from some other windows. His explanation / demonstration (he had a demo window with him) covered the warranty expectations.

I have not yet compared the bids, so I cannot say who was 'cheaper.' To be fair, I also had the firms quote on different window locations, so the quotes do not cover exactly the same work. I had no desire to 'price shop.'

Sure, one can brush this all aside as just another 'sales pitch'- but the simple fact is that we need to sell our work. A proper sales pitch can prevent a lot of the hard feelings we have with our customers. Perhaps we should 'head these problems off at the pass,' rather than try to counter them when they arise.

 

[__dan]

I've been getting prices from some window contractors lately.QUOTE]

I did the window replacement for my brother's raised ranch. I put in Anderson 400 new construction windows, flashed really well into the old rough opening and into the existing vinyl siding. It was not a big deal to pull the spikes out of the old window unit, yank it, and toss it. I would neither do nor accept anything different.

Companies bid replacement units that use the existing window frame and fit inside the existing window opening, for all the action at the low end of the market. Terrible finished product that will not perform well over the expected 20 yr install lifetime.

After window unit choice, the biggest differrence is the extra flashing and caulking, enough to guarantee a no leak job over the life of the install. I would guess my flashing method was easily double the labor of jobs conventionally saleable and price competitive in the market. Lots of people have window leaks, including leaks not visible without disassembly to the rough opening..

I would not know where to begin trying to sell the great Andersen 400 new construction windows with great flashing, offering to the customer "how would you like to spend double on labor on a great job you can be proud of and not have any trouble with". Maybe the shotgun approach, hammer the market with radio ads and wait for the customers who are ready to spend to call. Not on my target list.

 

[Electric-Light]

Ask same people if when they go to a restaurant if they bring their own food and ask the staff it they can cook it for them at a lesser price then they would spend for same item off the menu.

I hate when they purchase a bunch of supplies and expect you to use them. May be sufficient products but not what you would prefer to use, or maybe some things you can't use at all.

Not quite the same. Smaller contractors are not going to be able to get the materials at the same pricing as state contract negotiated pricing.

Since you're not reselling the material directly sales tax apply on materials. For NPO projects, some states require that the materials be purchased on their account to receive tax exemption.

 

[kwired]

Not quite the same. Smaller contractors are not going to be able to get the materials at the same pricing as state contract negotiated pricing.

Since you're not reselling the material directly sales tax apply on materials. For NPO projects, some states require that the materials be purchased on their account to receive tax exemption.

If you are not going to sell materials then you have more overhead that needs covered in your labor since that is all you are selling. You will also have the potential for having to spend extra time dealing with second and third parties if you are not providing materials. Since you are not directly responsible for ordering, you may have wrong items incorrect quantities, damaged items or whatever that you will spend at least some time dealing with, yet you made no profit from such items because you did not sell them. You better have some labor figured into a bid for such things and maybe even statements in contracts on how these situations will be resolved.

 

[electrickangaroo]

in 6 easy words...... YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR !!!!!

 

[Electric-Light]

If you are not going to sell materials then you have more overhead that needs covered in your labor since that is all you are selling. You will also have the potential for having to spend extra time dealing with second and third parties if you are not providing materials. Since you are not directly responsible for ordering, you may have wrong items incorrect quantities, damaged items or whatever that you will spend at least some time dealing with, yet you made no profit from such items because you did not sell them. You better have some labor figured into a bid for such things and maybe even statements in contracts on how these situations will be resolved.

Don't bid on jobs if you don't like the terms of RFQs.

 

[petersonra]

I simply know the value of what we do and have done the calculations of overhead, material, etc etc. I know the cost to run MY business. Not Your business but even if your licensed and work out of your pick up truck or have 3 vans etc..the value for something should be consistent. Almost looks as though we are ripping people off if you compare $20 to $70. I want to provide for myself, my family and my team of dedicated employees who do things the way it should be done. You think Doctors under cut..NO!! Landscapers?!!! NO! Home Theater Guys.. NO? Not like we do. My plight is unchanged.....establish at least a going rate. Perhaps you're ok with getting $20 an outlet. If so, where are you living and what are you living in?

Jersey Strong!!!!!!

I work for a system integrator in Illinois. There are plenty of guys in competition with us that do quite acceptable work for a lot less than what we can charge. It is just the way it is. They have found a niche where their overhead is all but non-existent. There have always been people who have been able to do that.

I once did some work for a guy that rebuilds industrial furnaces. He is always the cheapest guy for this kind of work when he bids jobs. he gets virtually every job he bids. He has no salesmen, no receptionist, no IT guy, etc. He has two employees. they do all the work themselves. Including the grunt work.

When they have to spend time overnight on a job they get one room at the hotel instead of three.

Last time I talked with one of his two employees, the employees had just gotten their quarterly bonus check. > $15k.

Guy that owns the business is a P.E. Most times I ran across him he was filthy dirty, but had a big smile on his face.

Best of all, they usually get about 3 months a year off and make enough money they can all afford to have fun between jobs.

next time you get an explanation of benefits from your insurance company take a look at what the doctor accepted as payment from the insurance company versus what his list price is and tell me doctors don't undercut. I have seen the price cut 40% or more just because it was paid by the insurance company.

 

[satcom]

I work for a system integrator in Illinois. There are plenty of guys in competition with us that do quite acceptable work for a lot less than what we can charge. It is just the way it is. They have found a niche where their overhead is all but non-existent. There have always been people who have been able to do that.

System integrators, around these parts hire off the street, and use one guy as the ring leader and work without permits and create a mess, when they drag cable across ceilings. and open fire walls and leave an opening big enough to crawl thru, many times their labor is not covered for comp, so if one of their highly skilled workers is injured both the worker and property owner are in trouble, anyone can operate for less money, if they cut corners, use cheap labor and avoid the permit process.

 

[petersonra]

System integrators, around these parts hire off the street, and use one guy as the ring leader and work without permits and create a mess, when they drag cable across ceilings. and open fire walls and leave an opening big enough to crawl thru, many times their labor is not covered for comp, so if one of their highly skilled workers is injured both the worker and property owner are in trouble, anyone can operate for less money, if they cut corners, use cheap labor and avoid the permit process.

I never heard of a system integrator that does that kind of work around here. We design, build, program, install (occasionally) and startup automatic control systems for all kinds of things. Mostly industrial machinery of various types. Chemical processes, one up machinery.

We are not going to be climbing around on your ceilings. We are all afraid of heights so we hire electrical contractors for that kind of work. They are more expendable anyway.

 

[satcom]

I never heard of a system integrator that does that kind of work around here. We design, build, program, install (occasionally) and startup automatic control systems for all kinds of things. Mostly industrial machinery of various types. Chemical processes, one up machinery.

We are not going to be climbing around on your ceilings. We are all afraid of heights so we hire electrical contractors for that kind of work. They are more expendable anyway.

Bob,

Ok the audio and electronic system installers all use system integrator to describe their service, what you are doing is more like control panel fabricators and machine wiring.