Which one is right?

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ceknight

Senior Member
I'd just spend $2 on one of those DMM's that Harbor Freight has. No need for a fancy shmancy Fluke. :)

Never hurts to have both!

Sorry to revive this thread, but happened to be in a basement today and noticed the customer had one of those Harbor Freight DMMs on the workbench. With this thread in mind the opportunity was too funny to pass up, so with the customer's permission I put it to the test. Results below. :)
 

chris kennedy

Senior Member
Location
Miami Fla.
Occupation
60 yr old tool twisting electrician
Chris, interesting the readings are pretty close.

I got Al another 850 yesterday. $101 I think is pretty good for a cat III meter that has been good for 2 years.

Newg850.jpg


What I find interesting here is that all the other functions seem to be normal. And gar, the HP seems to be my next meter of choice for the money. Soon as the wife isn't lookin...
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
090226-1937 EST

Chris:

When you say all the other functions seem OK, then my question becomes --- have you compared AC V at may be a 1 V level? Then have you compared AC current at some major different levels?

If any AC function at any level seems to have about the same percentage error, then my assumption is that the RMS to DC converter in the meter has failed. Otherwise it my be a scaling problem.

You should try to find an HP to play with before you really considering buying one. I think the specs and functions look good, but without first hand experience it is just a guess.

.
 

chris kennedy

Senior Member
Location
Miami Fla.
Occupation
60 yr old tool twisting electrician
You should try to find an HP to play with before you really considering buying one. I think the specs and functions look good, but without first hand experience it is just a guess.

.

It's half the price of the Fluke. Where would I get one to play with?
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
090226-2137 EST

Chris:

Try calling 1-800-452-4844 Test and Measurement Call Center in Englewood Colorado. Maybe they can route you to someone in your area.

.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
090227-1656 EST

zog:

Why is it shocking? What is the meaning of calibration?

From dictionary.com
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/calibration.
1. to determine, check, or rectify the graduation of (any instrument giving quantitative measurements).
I believe Chris did his own calibration check when he found that his two meters were in substantial disagreement.

For my needs and general use of different meters my calibration check is their relationship to each other and a confidence level associated with each. Some instruments and references that I have had for a long time are quite stable relative to my needs. Some are not. One that has not maintained accurate calibration is a Simpson 880 true RMS meter. This uses no ferromagnetic material and no permanent magnets. Should be very stable. Yet it reads 134 V with 121 V input. By comparison a 1974 Simpson 270 reads 9.90 V DC with 9.92 V applied.

Trying to find the original accuracy spec on the Simpson 880 I found the following site, but no information on an 880 voltmeter:
http://www.slack.com/temodel.html
Very slow to load.

I have a Ballantine 420 calibrator, circa 1962. It is labeled as having an accuracy of 0.5%. Maximum DC output is 10 V and its reference is an OA2. That is a gas discharge voltage regulator tube. There are a number of other vacuum tubes used to generate the 1 kHz RMS signal. I do not know whether the AC signal was referenced back to the OA2 or used something else. In the life of this instrument it has had negligible use. Really have had little need. In 1964 I built a small standard DC reference based on a temperature compensated Zener. This was calibrated to the Ballantine. Today, 45 years later, my homemade reference is 6 MV higher than the Ballantine at 10 V. that is 0.06% difference. My Fluke 27 reads 9.99 V on the homemade reference 10 V output, 0.1% difference.

That an OA2 reference is this unchanged over these many years is quite unexpected.

Do either of these two references get used? No. They are more of a curiosity now.

How much absolute accuracy does one need? Obviously it is a function of needs. In many cases resolution and noise level are more important than absolute accuracy. Being monotonic and having good linearity also may be more important than absolute accuracy.

Most electricians do not normally need 0.1% accuracy. I suspect that most electricians have more than one meter and a correlation between their meters gives them a reasonable estimate of meter condition. The good Fluke meters generally have a stated DC accuracy of 0.1%. This is likely to be quite stable over time.

I think there are more unknowns where the user of a meter does not know its limitations. For example a so called true RMS meter that has an input capacitor is used to measure a chopped DC signal and expects to get the RMS value of that signal which happens to be 0.707 of the peak-to-peak amplitude for a square wave, whereas the RMS of the same waveform with the DC component removed is 0.5 of the peak-to-peak amplitude.

For many applications I suspect that a formal calibration check by a certified lab is probably unnecessary vs comparison with other meters of known quality and condition. I am not surprised that most meters are not sent out for formal calibration checks. Much of the time it is probably an unnecessary cost.

A new meter from a quality source is probably accurate to its advertized specification and may be a more cost effective solution than having a meter repaired.

One type of instrument that needs constant calibration checks is a 50 or 100 #-in mechanical dial indicator type of hand torque wrench. These are delicate and get abused on a production line, and often have large errors. Beyond this they are improperly applied much of the time relative to measuring pinion preload drag torque.

.
 

Speedskater

Senior Member
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Occupation
retired broadcast, audio and industrial R&D engineering
As everyone else is checking meters, I though that I would too.

Using my Keithley 2000 as reference I checked the following units.

Keithley 2000 6? digit, multi-meter. From about 2001 $1200.
Keithley 177 4? digit, multi-meter. About 30 years old, currently $375.
Fluke 8020A 3? digit, multi-meter. About 30 years old.
Radio Shack True RMS 3? digit, multi-meter. Maybe 8 years old.
Kill-a-Watt P4400 3? digit, plug-in-meter. About 1 year old.
M8303? digit, multi-meter. Similar to the yellow Harbor Freight units.
From an outlet store $4. About 5 years old.
Harbor Freight Cen-tech DMM’s
Cen-tech 92020 3? digit, multi-meter. $4. About 1 year old. Very noisy.
Cen-tech 95683 3? digit, multi-meter. Under $20. 4 months old. w/current clamp.

None of the meters have been calibrated.

Model AC________Voltage____Error
Keithley 2000____0126.00___ reference
Keithley 177_____125.75____ -0.2%
Fluke 8020A_____125.9_____ -0.1%
R/S 22-1758_____124.6_____-1.1%
Kill-a-Watt______125.6 _____-0.3%
M830___________126.5_____+0.4%
92020__________124.5_____ -1.2%
95683__________126.0______?0.0%

AC Accuracy of the Keithley 2000 when reading a 120V AC 60 Hz signal
is calculated to be ?0.297V. Yep, not nearly as good as one might expect!
The accuracy takes a big hit when using the 750V range.
If we measure 99V on the 100V range then it” ?0.09V.

AC Accuracy of the Keithley 177 when reading a 120V AC 60 Hz signal
is calculated to be ?1.03V.

The line voltage is a little high, because it was 55?F all night in Cleveland (it’s now 28?F). Not much power using activity in the neighborhood mid-day Friday.
 
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