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kitchen countertop recep spacing with large garden window

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    #16
    the holes are filled with concrete...this is ICF.

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      #17
      RFI the designer for a solution.

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        #18
        sink is in the left side window...the other one is bare countertop
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          #19
          Originally posted by charlie b View Post
          OK. Here is one possible approach. What do you all think?

          210.52(A)(2) clarifies what is meant by "wall space." But it starts by saying, "As used in this section. . . ." Since (A)(2) is part of (A), I infer that that clarification only applies within (A). Specifically, it does not apply to 210.52(C). In other words, we don't have a clarification of what is meant by "wall space," in the context of "countertop wall space." Therefore, we cannot begin by saying a floor-to-ceiling window in the family room counts as wall space, and conclude therefrom that a countertop-to-ceiling window in the kitchen also counts as wall space.

          I am inclined to go with Tim's post #2. It's not "countertop wall space" because there is no wall, and because we don't have a rule that says a window behind a kitchen countertop counts as wall space.

          In the NEC style manual a "section" is described by "xxx.xx". I would contend that the "section" is 210.52 and that the wall space descriptions in 210.52(A)(2) apply to all of 210.52. Just my opinion.

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            #20
            I would ask the architect to propose a solution, with the "threat" that you'll have no choice to install a pedestal receptacle, or worse, right in the middle otherwise.

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            Master Electrician
            Electrical Contractor
            Richmond, VA

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              #21
              My suggestion is to speak with the local AHJ about (1) Whether the 24" rule applies to this installation, and if so, (2) Can you get an exemption? If you put a receptacle on the left and right vertical areas of the window opening, the center of the window space would be 30" from a receptacle on either side. I don't see a safety issue with that.
              Charles E. Beck, P.E., Seattle
              Comments based on 2017 NEC unless otherwise noted.

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                #22
                I would just add a receptacle on both sides of the garden window facing each other and hope the inspector doesn't want more than that. Otherwise, you may have to install a pop up receptacle.

                The ones we have done had the sink in the middle so one on each side work great.
                They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
                She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
                I can't help it if I'm lucky

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                  #23
                  A pop up should be fine. Quartz countertops actually are fairly easy to drill.

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                    #24
                    I call this the common sense rule. This has always been in Ohio's residential code.

                    This is why I like the word "shall"!

                    Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
                    Inspector Mike®
                    ESI

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by LarryFine View Post
                      I would ask the architect to propose a solution, with the "threat" that you'll have no choice to install a pedestal receptacle, or worse, right in the middle otherwise.

                      [ATTACH=CONFIG]22951[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]22952[/ATTACH]
                      Have you encountered architects with the first clue about such things?

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by TimWA View Post
                        Have you encountered architects with the first clue about such things?
                        A couple.

                        My suggestion is to show him how ugly the electrician's solution will be, if he doesn't have a better one.
                        Master Electrician
                        Electrical Contractor
                        Richmond, VA

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by charlie b View Post
                          OK. Here is one possible approach. What do you all think?

                          210.52(A)(2) clarifies what is meant by "wall space." But it starts by saying, "As used in this section. . . ." Since (A)(2) is part of (A), I infer that that clarification only applies within (A). Specifically, it does not apply to 210.52(C). In other words, we don't have a clarification of what is meant by "wall space," in the context of "countertop wall space." Therefore, we cannot begin by saying a floor-to-ceiling window in the family room counts as wall space, and conclude therefrom that a countertop-to-ceiling window in the kitchen also counts as wall space.

                          I am inclined to go with Tim's post #2. It's not "countertop wall space" because there is no wall, and because we don't have a rule that says a window behind a kitchen countertop counts as wall space.
                          Originally posted by packersparky View Post
                          In the NEC style manual a "section" is described by "xxx.xx". I would contend that the "section" is 210.52 and that the wall space descriptions in 210.52(A)(2) apply to all of 210.52. Just my opinion.


                          I agree I think "section" that it applies to is all of 210.52
                          [COLOR=#000000]Exception: Receptacle outlets shall not be required on a wall directly behind a range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink in the installation described in [/COLOR]Figure 210.52(C)(1)Figure210.52(C)(1)

                          If there is range or sink in front of window and there is more than 12 inches of counter behind it (which looks like would be likely in OP's pictures) a receptacle would be needed if window is 5 feet wide. One on each "side wall" would work if window were only 4 feet or less.
                          I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

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                            #28
                            Ok getting back if anyone's still following this, response to my email query on this with pics to lead electrical inspector:


                            "The requirement is for “counter” space that is against a wall space. A garden window (or any window) does not make that space exempt.

                            The answer is yes outlets are required within 24” of a sink or other obstruction, and you cannot have more than 48” between outlets (any space has to be within 24” of an outlet). You can mount them in the front of the cabinet (no more than 12” down), or use the new pop-up type to cover those spaces.

                            Thank you,

                            *********
                            Lead Electrical Inspector
                            Tumwater and Aberdeen Offices
                            Department of Labor and Industries Electrical"

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by TimWA View Post
                              Ok getting back if anyone's still following this, response to my email query on this with pics to lead electrical inspector:


                              "The requirement is for “counter” space that is against a wall space. A garden window (or any window) does not make that space exempt.

                              The answer is yes outlets are required within 24” of a sink or other obstruction, and you cannot have more than 48” between outlets (any space has to be within 24” of an outlet). You can mount them in the front of the cabinet (no more than 12” down), or use the new pop-up type to cover those spaces.

                              Thank you,

                              *********
                              Lead Electrical Inspector
                              Tumwater and Aberdeen Offices
                              Department of Labor and Industries Electrical"
                              I'll petition for an exception/exemption! Keep the nice, clean lines of a garden window, with an outlet on either side. During a party, re-arrange the warming trays, and put a cold dish between them.

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                                #30
                                Originally posted by PaulMmn View Post
                                I'll petition for an exception/exemption! Keep the nice, clean lines of a garden window, with an outlet on either side. During a party, re-arrange the warming trays, and put a cold dish between them.
                                +1

                                The totality of circumstances. You are only talking about a 6" gap or 3" from each side. I've yet to meet a lady who would plop a crockpot in the middle of a window and leave it there...

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