kitchen countertop recep spacing with large garden window

[charlie b]

My suggestion is to speak with the local AHJ about (1) Whether the 24" rule applies to this installation, and if so, (2) Can you get an exemption? If you put a receptacle on the left and right vertical areas of the window opening, the center of the window space would be 30" from a receptacle on either side. I don't see a safety issue with that.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I would just add a receptacle on both sides of the garden window facing each other and hope the inspector doesn't want more than that. Otherwise, you may have to install a pop up receptacle.

The ones we have done had the sink in the middle so one on each side work great.

 

[retirede]

A pop up should be fine. Quartz countertops actually are fairly easy to drill.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I call this the common sense rule. This has always been in Ohio's residential code.

This is why I like the word "shall"!

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[TimWA]

I would ask the architect to propose a solution, with the "threat" that you'll have no choice to install a pedestal receptacle, or worse, right in the middle otherwise.

View attachment 22951 View attachment 22952

Have you encountered architects with the first clue about such things?

 

[LarryFine]

Have you encountered architects with the first clue about such things?

A couple.

My suggestion is to show him how ugly the electrician's solution will be, if he doesn't have a better one.

 

[kwired]

OK. Here is one possible approach. What do you all think?

210.52(A)(2) clarifies what is meant by "wall space." But it starts by saying, "As used in this section. . . ." Since (A)(2) is part of (A), I infer that that clarification only applies within (A). Specifically, it does not apply to 210.52(C). In other words, we don't have a clarification of what is meant by "wall space," in the context of "countertop wall space." Therefore, we cannot begin by saying a floor-to-ceiling window in the family room counts as wall space, and conclude therefrom that a countertop-to-ceiling window in the kitchen also counts as wall space.

I am inclined to go with Tim's post #2. It's not "countertop wall space" because there is no wall, and because we don't have a rule that says a window behind a kitchen countertop counts as wall space.

In the NEC style manual a "section" is described by "xxx.xx". I would contend that the "section" is 210.52 and that the wall space descriptions in 210.52(A)(2) apply to all of 210.52. Just my opinion.


I agree I think "section" that it applies to is all of 210.52

[FONT=&quot]Exception: Receptacle outlets shall not be required on a wall directly behind a range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink in the installation described in [/FONT]Figure 210.52(C)(1) Figure210.52(C)(1)

If there is range or sink in front of window and there is more than 12 inches of counter behind it (which looks like would be likely in OP's pictures) a receptacle would be needed if window is 5 feet wide. One on each "side wall" would work if window were only 4 feet or less.

 

[TimWA]

Ok getting back if anyone's still following this, response to my email query on this with pics to lead electrical inspector:


"The requirement is for “counter” space that is against a wall space. A garden window (or any window) does not make that space exempt.

The answer is yes outlets are required within 24” of a sink or other obstruction, and you cannot have more than 48” between outlets (any space has to be within 24” of an outlet). You can mount them in the front of the cabinet (no more than 12” down), or use the new pop-up type to cover those spaces.

Thank you,

*********
Lead Electrical Inspector
Tumwater and Aberdeen Offices
Department of Labor and Industries Electrical"

 

[PaulMmn]

Ok getting back if anyone's still following this, response to my email query on this with pics to lead electrical inspector:


"The requirement is for “counter” space that is against a wall space. A garden window (or any window) does not make that space exempt.

The answer is yes outlets are required within 24” of a sink or other obstruction, and you cannot have more than 48” between outlets (any space has to be within 24” of an outlet). You can mount them in the front of the cabinet (no more than 12” down), or use the new pop-up type to cover those spaces.

Thank you,

*********
Lead Electrical Inspector
Tumwater and Aberdeen Offices
Department of Labor and Industries Electrical"

I'll petition for an exception/exemption! Keep the nice, clean lines of a garden window, with an outlet on either side. During a party, re-arrange the warming trays, and put a cold dish between them.

 

[Chamuit]

I'll petition for an exception/exemption! Keep the nice, clean lines of a garden window, with an outlet on either side. During a party, re-arrange the warming trays, and put a cold dish between them.

+1

The totality of circumstances. You are only talking about a 6" gap or 3" from each side. I've yet to meet a lady who would plop a crockpot in the middle of a window and leave it there...

 

[LarryFine]

Well, look at the "bright" roll side: with a front-mounted receptacle, the receptacles flanking the window won't have to crowd the window trim; they can be a couple of feet away.

 

[Russell Ensslin]

There is a 4 inch spacer below the header atop the window. Pull that spacer out and raise the window 4 inches. That will give you a 4 inches sill to put your outlet turned sideways.


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[kwired]

There is a 4 inch spacer below the header atop the window. Pull that spacer out and raise the window 4 inches. That will give you a 4 inches sill to put your outlet turned sideways.


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Window may not be able to go any higher on the outside of he wall.

 

[Russell Ensslin]

If that be the case pendant receptacles look like the only option.
Maybe you can find some really cool ones


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[packersparky]

Ok getting back if anyone's still following this, response to my email query on this with pics to lead electrical inspector:


" You can mount them in the front of the cabinet (no more than 12” down), or use the new pop-up type to cover those spaces.

Thank you,

*********
Lead Electrical Inspector
Tumwater and Aberdeen Offices
Department of Labor and Industries Electrical"

I don't see how mounting them in the front of the cabinet would be compliant with 210.52(C)(5).

(5) Receptacle Outlet Location. Receptacle outlets shall be
located on or above, but not more than 500 mm (20 in.) above,
the countertop or work surface.

 

[480sparky]

I don't see how mounting them in the front of the cabinet would be compliant with 210.52(C)(5).

(5) Receptacle Outlet Location. Receptacle outlets shall be
located on or above, but not more than 500 mm (20 in.) above,
the countertop or work surface.

Read the exception.

 

[packersparky]

Read the exception.

The exception only applies to construction for the physically impaired and island and peninsula countertops.

 

[480sparky]

The exception only applies to construction for the physically impaired and island and peninsula countertops.

Keep reading.

(1) Construction for the physically impaired
(2) On island and peninsular countertops or work surface where the surface is ƒat across its entire surface (no backsplashes, dividers, etc.) and there are no means to mount a receptacle within 500 mm (20 in.) above the countertop or work surface, such as an overhead cabinet

 

[packersparky]

Keep reading.

The "work surface" that is mentioned is specific to an island or peninsula work surface.

 

[480sparky]

The "work surface" that is mentioned is specific to an island or peninsula work surface.

See the word "or".