kitchen countertop recep spacing with large garden window

TimWA

Member
Hello all,

Have a custom kitchen countertop passing through a five-foot-wide garden window with no backsplash, flat right through. No sink or cooktop, just work surface. How does one satisfy the spacing requirement for receps serving countertop, cut a face-up into quartz? Yikes!
 

TimWA

Member
ahh got it.

"A receptacle outlet must be installed for every kitchen and dining area counter wall space 12 inches or wider. Receptacles must be installed so that no point along the counter wall space is more than 24inches (2 feet), measured horizontally, from a receptacle outlet."

Garden window width is not a section of wall space, not counted.
 

ptonsparky

Senior Member
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
ahh got it.

"A receptacle outlet must be installed for every kitchen and dining area counter wall space 12 inches or wider. Receptacles must be installed so that no point along the counter wall space is more than 24inches (2 feet), measured horizontally, from a receptacle outlet."

Garden window width is not a section of wall space, not counted.
I believe a window is counted as counter wall space. Floor to ceiling windows are counted as wall space in the rest of the home.

That said, I don’t follow your description of a garden window.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I believe a window is counted as counter wall space. Floor to ceiling windows are counted as wall space in the rest of the home.

That said, I don’t follow your description of a garden window.
+1

If the entire "wall" was glass it doesn't change any of the rules on spacing.

Absence of a "wall" at this counter makes it an island or peninsula, where the rules do change.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Hello all,

Have a custom kitchen countertop passing through a five-foot-wide garden window with no backsplash, flat right through. No sink or cooktop, just work surface. How does one satisfy the spacing requirement for receps serving countertop, cut a face-up into quartz? Yikes!
ahh got it.

"A receptacle outlet must be installed for every kitchen and dining area counter wall space 12 inches or wider. Receptacles must be installed so that no point along the counter wall space is more than 24inches (2 feet), measured horizontally, from a receptacle outlet."

Garden window width is not a section of wall space, not counted.
Face up is a no-no unless it is something listed for the purpose, but most of those designed to go into a counter are "pop up" type devices. Outlets just below the counter and in the front of the base cabinet may be acceptable, kind of an inspector call in this situation though. If your "window is less than 4 feet wide, a receptacle on each side of window is fine if there is no more than 4 feet between them.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
Hello all,

Have a custom kitchen countertop passing through a five-foot-wide garden window with no backsplash, flat right through. No sink or cooktop, just work surface. How does one satisfy the spacing requirement for receps serving countertop, cut a face-up into quartz? Yikes!
Face-up in the c'top isn't allowed.

You need to take a baseball bat, walk into the designer's office and beat the living daylights out of them for designing a kitchen that cannot comply with building codes. They need to learn there are codes that must be followed and quit laying out kitchens and such based solely on the lookin' purdy.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Face-up in the c'top isn't allowed.

You need to take a baseball bat, walk into the designer's office and beat the living daylights out of them for designing a kitchen that cannot comply with building codes. They need to learn there are codes that must be followed and quit laying out kitchens and such based solely on the lookin' purdy.
There are ways of complying, they just don't make those involved very happy. Don't want to drill a pop up into the stone counter? Pendant drop is code compliant, the woman of the house probably won't like it unless they have some sort of industrial design scheme.:cool:
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Seattle, WA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
I don't understand the description. Can you post a photo?

Until the photo arrives, here is my guess as to what you are trying to describe:

  • Stand to the left of the window, facing the wall.
  • Put your hand on the countertop, and slide it towards the wall until your finger touches the backsplash.
  • Keeping your hand on the countertop and your finger touching the backsplash, slide your hand to the right.
  • At some point, I imagine that your hand will still be touching countertop, but what is your finger touching?
    • Glass?
    • The bottom wooden vertical frame of the window?
    • The wooden horizontal surface of the bottom of the garden window, with the actual glass some distance further away from your hand?
  • As you continue sliding your hand to the right, your finger eventually touches the backsplash of the counter space to the right of the window.

Can you use this description to clarify your situation?
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Seattle, WA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
OK. Here is one possible approach. What do you all think?

210.52(A)(2) clarifies what is meant by "wall space." But it starts by saying, "As used in this section. . . ." Since (A)(2) is part of (A), I infer that that clarification only applies within (A). Specifically, it does not apply to 210.52(C). In other words, we don't have a clarification of what is meant by "wall space," in the context of "countertop wall space." Therefore, we cannot begin by saying a floor-to-ceiling window in the family room counts as wall space, and conclude therefrom that a countertop-to-ceiling window in the kitchen also counts as wall space.

I am inclined to go with Tim's post #2. It's not "countertop wall space" because there is no wall, and because we don't have a rule that says a window behind a kitchen countertop counts as wall space.
 

PaulMmn

Senior Member
Location
Union, KY, USA
There are ways of complying, they just don't make those involved very happy. Don't want to drill a pop up into the stone counter? Pendant drop is code compliant, the woman of the house probably won't like it unless they have some sort of industrial design scheme.:cool:
I'm envisioning this as a 5' wide pass-thru from the kitchen to the patio.

I can also see the party flowing from inside to outside, with food & beverages being pushed back and forth over the counter, perhaps with crock pots and warming trays all over the place.

I think the pendant drop has the most potential-- but drop one down each side of the window opening. Make the pendants look like they're permanently installed, until you need to plug something in in the middle of the counter.

Or just a wall-mounted outlet at the base of the window frame on either side of the opening. Makes the center of the counter 2-1/2' from an outlet.

ps--

How 'bout an outlet mounted 2 feet up the side of the window,facing either (or both) inside and outside. When you need the outlet, it swings down and rests on the counter.. One on either side of the opening?

Retractable pendants, popping out of the windowsill on either side of the opening and pulled across the counter to where they're needed.
 

TimWA

Member
Apologies ok...here is the 60" width kitchen garden window in question. Quartz countertop will go straight across the window at sill height, extending into it as it passes...ie no backsplash. And 5 ft wide.
 

Attachments

PaulMmn

Senior Member
Location
Union, KY, USA
...and no backyard picnics/barbecues/etc. Just plants. Does the window 'deck' slope towards the inside/sink? <-- no sink, you said. Where does all the condensation go??

What are the 2 'holes' in the windowsill?

You said this is an extension of the countertop... Any hope this could be considered a peninsula? How wide is the countertop? Any hope of outlets along the front edge meeting code?
 

packersparky

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
OK. Here is one possible approach. What do you all think?

210.52(A)(2) clarifies what is meant by "wall space." But it starts by saying, "As used in this section. . . ." Since (A)(2) is part of (A), I infer that that clarification only applies within (A). Specifically, it does not apply to 210.52(C). In other words, we don't have a clarification of what is meant by "wall space," in the context of "countertop wall space." Therefore, we cannot begin by saying a floor-to-ceiling window in the family room counts as wall space, and conclude therefrom that a countertop-to-ceiling window in the kitchen also counts as wall space.

I am inclined to go with Tim's post #2. It's not "countertop wall space" because there is no wall, and because we don't have a rule that says a window behind a kitchen countertop counts as wall space.

In the NEC style manual a "section" is described by "xxx.xx". I would contend that the "section" is 210.52 and that the wall space descriptions in 210.52(A)(2) apply to all of 210.52. Just my opinion.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I would ask the architect to propose a solution, with the "threat" that you'll have no choice to install a pedestal receptacle, or worse, right in the middle otherwise.

P88963.jpg wiremold-legrand-boxes-brackets-nmw2-d-64_1000.jpg
 
Top