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    service equipment

    would a sub panel be concidered service equipment?

    #2
    No, see the definition of "Service Equipment" in article 100.

    Roger
    Moderator

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      #3
      Originally posted by roger View Post
      No, see the definition of "Service Equipment" in article 100.

      Roger
      Indeed, I have, but I feel that it can be interpreted in a way that would allow a sub panel to be treated as service equipment. For example, if a meter was changed to a meter main, would you have to change a range that was wired with #6 SE cable to a 4 wire?

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        #4
        Originally posted by mortimer View Post
        Indeed, I have, but I feel that it can be interpreted in a way that would allow a sub panel to be treated as service equipment. For example, if a meter was changed to a meter main, would you have to change a range that was wired with #6 SE cable to a 4 wire?

        Some areas may allow it to remain but you have made a service panel a non service panel and thus the se cable would not be compliant from a sub.

        Once you have a main breaker or use the 6 handle rule then any panel after the main is not service equipment.
        They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
        She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
        I can't help it if I'm lucky

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          #5
          'Subpanel' is not a code term but the way myself and everyone else I know uses the term it is by definition not service equipment. In fact I would say it's primarily used to communicate that a panel is not service equipment.

          I completely agree with Dennis regarding changing the role of a panel.

          Comment


            #6
            Yes, any time you add a new main disconnect upstream, everything after should be re-wired as a sub-panel would be, including major-appliance circuits, receptacles, power cords, etc.

            This is triggered when, for example, a transfer switch is added to an existing service; the T/S becomes the service, and GECs and the main bond are supposed to be relocated there, etc.
            Master Electrician
            Electrical Contractor
            Richmond, VA

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by LarryFine View Post
              Yes, any time you add a new main disconnect upstream, everything after should be re-wired as a sub-panel would be, including major-appliance circuits, receptacles, power cords, etc.

              This is triggered when, for example, a transfer switch is added to an existing service; the T/S becomes the service, and GECs and the main bond are supposed to be relocated there, etc.
              Not exactly.

              You'd only treat everything downstream as a Subpanel if the new "Main Disconnect" had overcurrent protection incorporated into it.

              JAP>

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by mortimer View Post
                Indeed, I have, but I feel that it can be interpreted in a way that would allow a sub panel to be treated as service equipment. For example, if a meter was changed to a meter main, would you have to change a range that was wired with #6 SE cable to a 4 wire?
                I can't see any way it can be interpreted except it is not service equipment any more. Per the NEC yes, you would have to change it.

                Originally posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
                Some areas may allow it to remain but you have made a service panel a non service panel and thus the se cable would not be compliant from a sub.
                And to expand on that, if an inspector allowed it he would not be doing his job.

                Roger
                Moderator

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by roger View Post
                  I can't see any way it can be interpreted except it is not service equipment any more. Per the NEC yes, you would have to change it.

                  And to expand on that, if an inspector allowed it he would not be doing his job.

                  Roger

                  NC allows it in some situations


                  250.140 Frames of Ranges and Clothes Dryers.Frames of electric ranges, wall-mounted ovens,counter-mounted cooking units, clothes dryers,and outlet or junction boxes that are part of thecircuit for these appliances shall be connected tothe equipment grounding conductor in the mannerspecified by 250.134 or 250.138.

                  Exception No. 1: For existing branch-circuitinstallations only where an equipment groundingconductor is not present in the outlet or junctionbox, the frames of electric ranges, wall-mountedovens, counter-mounted cooking units, clothesdryers, and outlet or junction boxes that are partof the circuit for these appliances shall bepermitted to be connected to the grounded circuitconductor if all the following conditions are met.
                  (1) The supply circuit is 120/240-volt, singlephase, 3-wire; or 208Y/120-volt derived froma 3-phase, 4-wire, wye-connected system.
                  (2) The grounded conductor is not smaller than10 AWG copper or 8 AWG aluminum.
                  (3) Any of the following:
                  a. The grounded conductor is insulated;
                  b. The grounded conductor is uninsulated andpart or a Type SE service-entrance cableand the branch circuit originates at theservice;
                  c. The grounded conductor is uninsulated andpart of a cable assembly and all current carrying conductors are protected by a ground-fault circuit interrupter at the origination of the branch circuit; or
                  d. A new 3-wire cable assembly not smallerthan the existing conductors shall bepermitted to be extended from the service toan enclosure where the existing conductorsshall be spliced together and provisions aremade so that the grounded conductors areinsulated by tape, heat-shrink or otherapproved means inside the enclosure.
                  (4) Grounding contacts of receptacles furnishedas part of the equipment are bonded to theequipment

                  Exception No. 2: For existing branch-circuitinstallations only where an equipment groundingconductor is not present in the outlet or junctionbox, an equipment grounding conductor sized inaccordance with 250.122 shall be permitted to berun separately from the circuit conductors.
                  They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
                  She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
                  I can't help it if I'm lucky

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Sometimes it is nearly impossible to run a new cable for a range or dryer. The inspectors here look at situations like this and will allow taping of a bare neutral to prevent accidental contact with anything non-current carrying.
                    [COLOR=navy]If you aim at nothing, you will hit it every time![/COLOR]

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                      #11
                      Thank you Dennis and Bill. That's what I was looking for

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
                        NC allows it in some situations
                        Dennis, existing installations would mean nothing else has changed. There has never been an exception to allow a three wire branch circuit where it was never allowed in the first place and it was never allowed from a "subpanel".

                        Roger
                        Moderator

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by roger View Post
                          Dennis, existing installations would mean nothing else has changed. There has never been an exception to allow a three wire branch circuit where it was never allowed in the first place and it was never allowed from a "subpanel".

                          Roger
                          I should have pointed to Exception 1 (3)(b) of 250.140 to accompany my post.

                          [COLOR=#000000]b. The grounded conductor is uninsulated and part or a Type SE service-entrance cable and the branch circuit originates at the service;[/COLOR]
                          [COLOR=#000000]

                          Roger
                          [/COLOR]
                          Moderator

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                            #14
                            Roger I am pretty certain that the intent of the bold was added to accommodate the situation we are talking about. I can check with Joe but I seem to remember going over that with him
                            They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy
                            She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me
                            I can't help it if I'm lucky

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Dennis Alwon View Post
                              Roger I am pretty certain that the intent of the bold was added to accommodate the situation we are talking about. I can check with Joe but I seem to remember going over that with him
                              Dennis, I would like to hear what Joe has to say about it not being fed from the service equipment. Regardless, NC's amendments do not change the NEC which does not have any exception to the requirement that a three wire branch circuit as covered in 250.140 must originate at the "Service Equipment"

                              Roger
                              Moderator

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