mortimer
third party inspector
- Location
- New England
- Occupation
- retired
would a sub panel be concidered service equipment?
service equipment
- Thread starter mortimer
- Start date
- Status
mortimer
third party inspector
- Location
- New England
- Occupation
- retired
Indeed, I have, but I feel that it can be interpreted in a way that would allow a sub panel to be treated as service equipment. For example, if a meter was changed to a meter main, would you have to change a range that was wired with #6 SE cable to a 4 wire?
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Some areas may allow it to remain but you have made a service panel a non service panel and thus the se cable would not be compliant from a sub.
Once you have a main breaker or use the 6 handle rule then any panel after the main is not service equipment.
jaggedben
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern California
- Occupation
- Solar and Energy Storage Installer
'Subpanel' is not a code term but the way myself and everyone else I know uses the term it is by definition not service equipment. In fact I would say it's primarily used to communicate that a panel is not service equipment.
I completely agree with Dennis regarding changing the role of a panel.
I completely agree with Dennis regarding changing the role of a panel.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Yes, any time you add a new main disconnect upstream, everything after should be re-wired as a sub-panel would be, including major-appliance circuits, receptacles, power cords, etc.
This is triggered when, for example, a transfer switch is added to an existing service; the T/S becomes the service, and GECs and the main bond are supposed to be relocated there, etc.
This is triggered when, for example, a transfer switch is added to an existing service; the T/S becomes the service, and GECs and the main bond are supposed to be relocated there, etc.
Not exactly.
You'd only treat everything downstream as a Subpanel if the new "Main Disconnect" had overcurrent protection incorporated into it.
JAP>
I can't see any way it can be interpreted except it is not service equipment any more. Per the NEC yes, you would have to change it.
And to expand on that, if an inspector allowed it he would not be doing his job.
Roger
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
- Location
- Tennessee NEC:2017
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrician
Sometimes it is nearly impossible to run a new cable for a range or dryer. The inspectors here look at situations like this and will allow taping of a bare neutral to prevent accidental contact with anything non-current carrying.
mortimer
third party inspector
- Location
- New England
- Occupation
- retired
Thank you Dennis and Bill. That's what I was looking for:bye:
Dennis, existing installations would mean nothing else has changed. There has never been an exception to allow a three wire branch circuit where it was never allowed in the first place and it was never allowed from a "subpanel".
Roger
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Roger I am pretty certain that the intent of the bold was added to accommodate the situation we are talking about. I can check with Joe but I seem to remember going over that with him
Dennis, I would like to hear what Joe has to say about it not being fed from the service equipment. Regardless, NC's amendments do not change the NEC which does not have any exception to the requirement that a three wire branch circuit as covered in 250.140 must originate at the "Service Equipment"
Roger
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
My point was that it is allowed in some areas. Granted the NEC doesn't allow it.
Nc has gone further for an existing 3 wires run to an old service panel that is now a sub panel
Exception No. 5: It shall be permissible to groundan existing panelboard enclosure by connectionto the grounded circuit conductor for a one- andtwo-family dwelling where all the followingconditions apply:
(1) When relocating or installing an additionalmain disconnecting means;
(2) Enacting 250.142(B) Exception No. 5: (1)redefines the existing service entranceconductors as a feeder as set forth in Article100;
(3) An equipment grounding conductor in theexisting panelboard is not present;
(4) Replacement of the existing service entranceconductors either requires the removal of thebuilding finish or is deemed impractical by theauthority having jurisdiction.
(5) All grounding electrode conductors areremoved completely from the existingpanelboard; and(6) The grounded conductors are insulated bytape, heat-shrink, or other approved meansexcept where covered by the sheathing of acable assembly or as needed for joints, splices,and termination purposes.
Nc has gone further for an existing 3 wires run to an old service panel that is now a sub panel
Exception No. 5: It shall be permissible to groundan existing panelboard enclosure by connectionto the grounded circuit conductor for a one- andtwo-family dwelling where all the followingconditions apply:
(1) When relocating or installing an additionalmain disconnecting means;
(2) Enacting 250.142(B) Exception No. 5: (1)redefines the existing service entranceconductors as a feeder as set forth in Article100;
(3) An equipment grounding conductor in theexisting panelboard is not present;
(4) Replacement of the existing service entranceconductors either requires the removal of thebuilding finish or is deemed impractical by theauthority having jurisdiction.
(5) All grounding electrode conductors areremoved completely from the existingpanelboard; and(6) The grounded conductors are insulated bytape, heat-shrink, or other approved meansexcept where covered by the sheathing of acable assembly or as needed for joints, splices,and termination purposes.
I think they need to work on their wording.
How do you install an "additional main disconnecting means", how many "main disconnecting means" can you have?
They should have worded it something like, "When relocating" the existing service location.
Roger
That's an interesting point.
Seeing as how there is no branch distribution in a Meter/Main setup (unless you purchase it with it) , isn't the existing Service Panel (although now actually a subpanel) still the first "Service Panel" where a branch circuit can be taken from ?
JAP>
mortimer
third party inspector
- Location
- New England
- Occupation
- retired
- Status