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    #31
    Don't sign off on the permit, it will be between the EC and the HO. If they decide to sell the home it will come back to the surface.

    IMO, the EC should have caught it and included the fix in his proposal.

    Roger
    Moderator

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      #32
      Feeder Supplied Panels

      Originally posted by jaggedben View Post
      'Subpanel' is not a code term but the way myself and everyone else I know uses the term it is by definition not service equipment. In fact I would say it's primarily used to communicate that a panel is not service equipment.

      I completely agree with Dennis regarding changing the role of a panel.
      Any panelboard that is supplied via conductors which originate in another panel and are not tapped off of the Service Entry Conductors is a feeder supplied panel. Once the current passes through a Service Disconnecting means any circuit it supplies is either a Branch Circuit or a Feeder. Any panelboard supplied by a feeder circuit cannot by definition be Service Equipment. All Service Equipment is supplied by Service Entry Conductors or by a power utility underground service lateral which is terminated directly on the supply terminals of the Service Disconnecting Means. That last is essentially a semantic difference that comes about because of the difference in Service Standards between different power utilities. Those standards; once they are accepted by the utility regulatory agency of a state government; define were the demarcation point is between the Utility's conductors and the premises Service Entry Conductors. When a service lateral terminates at the supply terminals of a Meter Mains assembly that is the demarcation point and there are no Service Entry Conductors.
      Last edited by hornetd; 08-12-19, 05:28 PM. Reason: Delete repeat signature
      Tom Horne

      "This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

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        #33
        Originally posted by hornetd View Post
        Any panelboard that is supplied via conductors which originate in another panel and are not tapped off of the Service Entry Conductors is a feeder supplied panel. [COLOR="#FF0000"]Once the current passes through a Service Disconnecting means any circuit it supplies is either a Branch Circuit or a Feeder[/COLOR]. Any panelboard supplied by a feeder circuit cannot by definition be Service Equipment. All Service Equipment is supplied by Service Entry Conductors or by a power utility underground service lateral which is terminated directly on the supply terminals of the Service Disconnecting Means. That last is essentially a semantic difference that comes about because of the difference in Service Standards between different power utilities. Those standards; once they are accepted by the utility regulatory agency of a state government; define were the demarcation point is between the Utility's conductors and the premises Service Entry Conductors. When a service lateral terminates at the supply terminals of a Meter Mains assembly that is the demarcation point and there are no Service Entry Conductors.
        Let's not forget.

        It can only be considered a branch circuit or feeder after it passes through some type of OCPD.

        JAP>

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by Little Bill View Post
          Sometimes it is nearly impossible to run a new cable for a range or dryer. The inspectors here look at situations like this and will allow taping of a bare neutral to prevent accidental contact with anything non-current carrying.
          Taping a neutral on a 3 wire range or dryer circuit is only of use in the panel from which the 3 wire branch circuit originates. That still does not address the underlying problems arissing out of such installations remaining in service once the panel it originates in is no longer the Service Equipment. The frame of the appliance will be bonded to the Grounded Current Carrying Conductor (Neutral) if that appliance was properly installed in the first place. Metal reinforced water supply hoses, contact with an adjacent appliance, or being on a conductive floor, such as concrete, if the legs are conductive will all provide a sneak current pathway for neutral current to flow over exposed conductive surfaces. The controls of a range and the motor and controls of a clothes dryer all require a 120 volt supply. In both cases that guarantees that there will be current flowing on the Grounded Current Carrying Conductor (Neutral). As long as the connections of the Grounded Current Carrying Conductor (Neutral) remain in good condition most of the current from the 120 volt portion of the load will return on the Grounded Current Carrying Conductor (Neutral). If any connection of the Grounded Current Carrying Conductor (Neutral) becomes high resistance for any reason that current will be looking for a way back to the windings of the secondary of the transformer from whence it came that was never intended to carry electrical current. It is nearly inevitable that the leakage pathway will have considerable voltage drop and that the touch potential of some conductive surfaces will become dangerous.
          Tom Horne

          "This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by hornetd View Post
            Taping a neutral on a 3 wire range or dryer circuit is only of use in the panel from which the 3 wire branch circuit originates. That still does not address the underlying problems arissing out of such installations remaining in service once the panel it originates in is no longer the Service Equipment. The frame of the appliance will be bonded to the Grounded Current Carrying Conductor (Neutral) if that appliance was properly installed in the first place. Metal reinforced water supply hoses, contact with an adjacent appliance, or being on a conductive floor, such as concrete, if the legs are conductive will all provide a sneak current pathway for neutral current to flow over exposed conductive surfaces. The controls of a range and the motor and controls of a clothes dryer all require a 120 volt supply. In both cases that guarantees that there will be current flowing on the Grounded Current Carrying Conductor (Neutral). As long as the connections of the Grounded Current Carrying Conductor (Neutral) remain in good condition most of the current from the 120 volt portion of the load will return on the Grounded Current Carrying Conductor (Neutral). If any connection of the Grounded Current Carrying Conductor (Neutral) becomes high resistance for any reason that current will be looking for a way back to the windings of the secondary of the transformer from whence it came that was never intended to carry electrical current. It is nearly inevitable that the leakage pathway will have considerable voltage drop and that the touch potential of some conductive surfaces will become dangerous.
            And that's a very detailed explanation of my simple comment in post #21.

            JAP>

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              #36
              If all EC'c caught things like that, I wouldn't have a job

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                #37
                Originally posted by mortimer View Post
                So......The HO will not pay for the EC to change the 3 wire in his new "sub panel" to a 4 wire for his range, that has a #6 seu after changing the old service to a meter main.
                What is an inspector to do
                Fail the inspection, it is not compliant with the code the inspection is based on.

                What happens next varies from place to place. Some may be like was mentioned and is possibly left as an issue when it comes time to sell the place, others may be required to fix the deficiency within a certain time or other actions will be taken. Some cases it is on the owner, others it is on the contractor to ensure it is fixed.
                Last edited by kwired; 08-15-19, 09:01 AM.
                I live for today, I'm just a day behind.

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