Shunt trip with 17 wires

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psychomik

Member
we have a generator shunt trip breaker 400 amp, 480 volt. it is an ITE JL-ETI-ET9600. The coil is burned up, and the customer wantes the whole unit replaced, but we suspect there may be a wiring problem, since someone was performing mainenance on it when the breaker started smoking. There are no diagrams available (those pages are missing from the manual). the 17 wires are 3 for the line, 3 for the load, two for the shunt coil, and there are three sets of dry contacts which account for the other 9 wires two of the sets of dry contacts change position when the breaker changes from on to off, and the other set changes position when it trips. There is a single pole DC breaker on the control panel, and when it is turned on, the coil engages, but the breaker does not trip. eventually the coil starts smoking. the maintenance guy says that normally when the DC breaker is turned on, the 400 amp breaker trips, but this doesn't sound like how it should work.

there may be a mechanical problem that prevents the coil from tripping the breaker, and since the coil is only intended to be energized momentarily it has burned up, but why would turning the control voltage on automatically shunt the coil? We can get a replacement for the breaker, we are just trying to avoid damaging the new one due to a pre-existing wiring problem. If anyone has any ideas we would welcome them.
 
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hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
The generator controls is calling for the breaker to trip, or there is a remote power off control such as a load shed device such as a fire pump controller activated. The breaker should have internal clearing contacts for the DC coil, which may or may not be internally connected. If the breaker does not trip, the coil will stay energized, thus the smoke is let out of it. Sound like a mechanical failure in the breaker, along with some other issues.
 
brian john

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
hillbilly1 said:
The generator controls is calling for the breaker to trip, or there is a remote power off control such as a load shed device such as a fire pump controller activated. The breaker should have internal clearing contacts for the DC coil, which may or may not be internally connected. If the breaker does not trip, the coil will stay energized, thus the smoke is let out of it. Sound like a mechanical failure in the breaker, along with some other issues.
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Sounds like hillbilly has this pegged BUT

thus the smoke is let out of it
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This unit stores smoke and lets it out when in trouble?
 
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nakulak

Senior Member
you said the magic word ("new one") - why haven't you gotten the manufacturer's factory service to check it out if a new one has been purchases (tell them you bought a new one and need help, otherwise you might decide to return it for a refund, see what they say)
 
brian john

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
nakulak said:
you said the magic word ("new one") - why haven't you gotten the manufacturer's factory service to check it out if a new one has been purchases (tell them you bought a new one and need help, otherwise you might decide to return it for a refund, see what they say)
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You do not need factory service there are many QUALIFIED companies that specialize in resolving these issues, besides waiting on factory service and (IMO their inflated prices)

Self promoting fool that I am.
 
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nakulak

Senior Member
if you are forking out the bucks for a new (anything) you should use that leverage to get some free help.(as well as not screwing up the warranty)
 
brian john

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
nakulak said:
if you are forking out the bucks for a new (anything) you should use that leverage to get some free help.(as well as not screwing up the warranty)
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Says you. Me I offer full service and while a lot can be said for factory input, I like to keep them away from my customers.
 
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Cold Fusion

Senior Member
Location
way north
psychomik said:
---The coil is burned up, and the customer wantes the whole unit replaced, but we suspect there may be a wiring problem, since someone was performing mainenance on it when the breaker started smoking. There are no diagrams available ---.
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The first thing I would fix is the no diagram. I don't know how anybody could make a guess with knowing how it is wired.

Trace it out. Make a wiring diagram. If the customer squawks, point out that you don't know why the CB shunt trip burned up, cause you don't have a wiring diagram.

That aside, all shunt trips I have ever seen have an internal disconnect on the coil when the CB opens. If the shunt trip coil burned up, the CB internals were bad. Check the mfg literature and CB internal wiring diagrams - if you don't have them - get them. Trouble shooting without the documentation isn't troubleshooting - it's easter egg hunting.

cf
 
zog

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
You can get a standard diagram from the OEM but for this type of application it won't help you much, these are usually custom wiring packages and the owner should have them somewhere, if not you will need to make your own by doing a point to point.
 
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psychomik

Member
This unit stores smoke and lets it out when in trouble?[/QUOTE]

The only problem is that the smoke is so hard to capture and put back in it.
 
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psychomik

Member
zog said:
I dont think that is right, that looks like a reference number not a breaker type or catalog number. Should be JL3-B400 or something like that.
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here is a photo of the label
photo.php
 
D

dbuckley

Senior Member
Location
Canterbury, New Zealand
psychomik said:
but we suspect there may be a wiring problem, since someone was performing mainenance on it when the breaker started smoking.
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Thats a very astute observation, and is a lesson on what happens when you start touching non-trivial stuff without the schematic to guide you along.

So I echo what others have said - first order of business is a schematic, otherwise you may end up replicating the smoke trick the other fellow performed.
 
zog

zog

Senior Member
Location
Charlotte, NC
psychomik said:
here is a direct link to the photo instead

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1970390&l=72b8f92ef2&id=546893789

this is what the lable says

Frame: JL
Typ: ETI
V: 600AC
Catalog or Serial No.: ET 96000
Poles: 3
Amp: 400
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Ok, that is an ITE JL3-F400 breaker. None of that nameplate info says much about the shunt trip accessory that was added on. You need to get the serial number for the shunt trip and get the prints from Seimens, they may charge you for the prints, and it will take a while. Or get them from the owner.
 
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