garage door clearance

[cowboyjwc]

OK so here it goes... I've got a 1 stall garage. Standing in the driveway looking into the garage with the big garage door open I put a panel on the side wall in the garage 6ft back from the front (front being the garage door opening side). Now if you walk in and stand facing the panel and look up, the garage door rail is above my head 7' off the floor and 2' out from the front of my panel. My city ordenence extended the 6'6" or to top of service gear code to 8'6" on new constuction. So that garage rail is realistically in the working space...(garage door open or not)...I just wanted to know if any of you had heard of this....It pretty much eliminates putting a panel in a garage on a side wall unless you go back farther than the garage door rail extends.. I'm pretty much just venting my frustration on some of the silly things inspectors come up with..Really?? a garage door rail? Really??

OK speaking as an inspector, I'd say good call.

Now speaking as an inspector again, I may go in and argue that they have no justification for changing the code from 6'6" to 8'6". Here in CA to change a code section the reasons must be topographical, geographical or climatic conditions. I have a feeling that their justification would not fall under any of those peramiters.

You always hear "pick your battles", this call is being made at final, I would say this is one worth fighting. You may not win, but you have nothing to lose either.

 

[charlie b]

Thanks for the explanation. What I now understand is that, with the door closed, and with you standing facing the front of the panel, a box that is 30 inches wide, 36 inches deep, and 8'6" high would have the railing passing through it. That would not violate the NEC, but it would violate the local ordinance. Is that it?

That, I have to say, is one stupid local rule. In fact, it goes way beyond merely stupid, and all the way to ?Class One Ludicrous.? The reason that working space is required to be reserved will not be served by extending the height of the space beyond that of a ?slightly taller than average person.?

My only question, or suggestion, hinges on whether you have actually read the wording of the local ordinance. How certain are you that it says what you think it says? Could it instead be talking about the ?dedicated equipment space? that lies directly above, and not in front of a panel?

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

You have a right to be upset but not with the inspector. They ammened the code for some reason in your town. I would first start with the reason by asking all of who created the change. Was this change in writing at time of your permit. Try being nice about this and maybe they let it slide. I see no hazard.

 

[jaylectricity]

My point is, don't blame the inspector because he missed it at rough, that just means that you both missed it and you should know the job far better than he does.

OK, so the local AHJ can make up whatever rules they want, right?

In MA, that can mean 100s of different sets of rules.

What is the best way to go about finding out all the local amendments? It seems if I ask if there are any amendments, they will have to give me ALL of them and I'll have to go through ALL of them to see which ones might apply.
Or I have to describe my plan for ALL of the work to be done to the AHJ so he can inform me of any violations ahead of time. That sounds like a royal PITA.

Never in a million years would I have thought height clearance at a residence would be amended locally.

 

[ty]

OK, so the local AHJ can make up whatever rules they want, right?

In MA, that can mean 100s of different sets of rules.

What is the best way to go about finding out all the local amendments? It seems if I ask if there are any amendments, they will have to give me ALL of them and I'll have to go through ALL of them to see which ones might apply.
Or I have to describe my plan for ALL of the work to be done to the AHJ so he can inform me of any violations ahead of time. That sounds like a royal PITA.

Never in a million years would I have thought height clearance at a residence would be amended locally.

If this is an amendment in writting, then it sounds like you need to add a disconnect and move the loadcenter farther down the wall.

And, yes I've heard of this before. Usually in townhomes where the cut-throat electricians put the meter on the small outside wall and came in 1 or 2 feet into the loadcenter. The arched part of the garage door rail would always be in the workspace, and the loadcenters would have to be moved.
Usually typical in Tract homes where the cut-throats would even try to skimp on 2 feet of service cable. Alot of them learned a big lesson.

 

[gotmud]

Thanks for the explanation. What I now understand is that, with the door closed, and with you standing facing the front of the panel, a box that is 30 inches wide, 36 inches deep, and 8'6" high would have the railing passing through it. That would not violate the NEC, but it would violate the local ordinance. Is that it?

That, I have to say, is one stupid local rule. In fact, it goes way beyond merely stupid, and all the way to “Class One Ludicrous.” The reason that working space is required to be reserved will not be served by extending the height of the space beyond that of a “slightly taller than average person.”

My only question, or suggestion, hinges on whether you have actually read the wording of the local ordinance. How certain are you that it says what you think it says? Could it instead be talking about the “dedicated equipment space” that lies directly above, and not in front of a panel?

Ok now you've got it. Here is the ordinace as it is written for our city. "in new structures, additional working space for switchboards and panel boards operating at 600 volts nominal or less to ground shall extend up two feet more above the required working space from the front face of the switchboard or panelboard. This applies only to equipment not part of the electrical installation. Building construction materials shall be allowed in the two-foot area".........and NO the garage rail is apparently not building constuction material... So yes it is the working space not the dedicated space. If it was the dedicated space there would be no prob since it's in the wall and the rail is not above that area. It's 2ft out from the wall...

 

[gotmud]

If this is an amendment in writting, then it sounds like you need to add a disconnect and move the loadcenter farther down the wall.

And, yes I've heard of this before. Usually in townhomes where the cut-throat electricians put the meter on the small outside wall and came in 1 or 2 feet into the loadcenter. The arched part of the garage door rail would always be in the workspace, and the loadcenters would have to be moved.
Usually typical in Tract homes where the cut-throats would even try to skimp on 2 feet of service cable. Alot of them learned a big lesson.

This is my only option...I'll have to rip it all off and start over and add a disconnect outside and move my panel down the wall farther to get past the rail. I'll have to add the disconnect because here they only allow 5ft of wire inside the structure...

 

[charlie b]

"in new structures, additional working space for switchboards and panel boards operating at 600 volts nominal or less to ground shall extend up two feet more above the required working space from the front face of the switchboard or panelboard. This applies only to equipment not part of the electrical installation. Building construction materials shall be allowed in the two-foot area".

OK. It?s official. That is now the present record holder for the stupidest local code ever enacted. I cannot think of any good reason for that extra two feet. Riddle me this:
1. Why is it safe for you to run a conduit up from the panel, to a height of 6?8?, then route the conduit over the front of the panel (above the ?traditional? NEC working space), and
2. Why is it also safe for a building roof truss to pass over the working space at a height above the floor of 6?8?, and finally
3. Why is it not safe for a garage door rail to pass 6?8? above the working space?

I cannot think of any answer to this riddle, other than one that involves under-the-table payoffs or some other form of corruption. My problem is that I can?t think of anyone who would benefit from this rule enough to warrant trying to pay off a city council member in order to get it enacted.

 

[resistance]

I still don't understand the situation. What happens when the garage door is closed? Is the track lower than 6'6"? Is the garage door now opposite the panel, and within 36 inches of the front face? I need a sketch. But I will say that if you have clearance with the door closed, and you lose the clearance with the door open, then that is not, Not, NOT a violation.

I agree! Yet, we still haven't seen a picture???

 

[resistance]

OK. It?s official. That is now the present record holder for the stupidest local code ever enacted. I cannot think of any good reason for that extra two feet. Riddle me this:
1. Why is it safe for you to run a conduit up from the panel, to a height of 6?8?, then route the conduit over the front of the panel (above the ?traditional? NEC working space), and
2. Why is it also safe for a building roof truss to pass over the working space at a height above the floor of 6?8?, and finally
3. Why is it not safe for a garage door rail to pass 6?8? above the working space?

I cannot think of any answer to this riddle, other than one that involves under-the-table payoffs or some other form of corruption. My problem is that I can?t think of anyone who would benefit from this rule enough to warrant trying to pay off a city council member in order to get it enacted.

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[jaylectricity]

I cannot think of any answer to this riddle, other than one that involves under-the-table payoffs or some other form of corruption. My problem is that I can?t think of anyone who would benefit from this rule enough to warrant trying to pay off a city council member in order to get it enacted.

Maybe we're asking the wrong question. Maybe they were sued by somebody and lost, or came close enough to losing the suit. But what could that have been? It's a head scratcher.

Also, do you type in the code for your font or is there some kind of setting within this website that automatically posts all your text in a font of your choosing?

 

[fishin' electrician]

That's brutal! I'd be taking this one high up the chain of command before I spent any money moving things. Best of luck to you.

 

[charlie b]

Also, do you type in the code for your font or is there some kind of setting within this website that automatically posts all your text in a font of your choosing?

I wish I could set a default font of my choosing, and not have to make a change every time I post. But as I type this message, right above the box into which I am typing there is a pair of pull-down menus, one for font type, the other for font size. I will change to Times New Roman size 3 (equivalent to 12 point), before I post this reply. It's a pain, but I really do not like the forum's default font of Veranda size 2.

 

[gotmud]

I agree! Yet, we still haven't seen a picture???

What do you need a picture for??? picture it in your head...OR when you go home tonight go IN your garage facing your overhead door turn your head to the right or left at the wall and that is where my panel is...Now look above where my panel would be and do you see that rail that your garage door slides on??? well that's the problem I'm having.

 

[jaylectricity]

What do you need a picture for??? picture it in your head...OR when you go home tonight go IN your garage facing your overhead door turn your head to the right or left at the wall and that is where my panel is...Now look above where my panel would be and do you see that rail that your garage door slides on??? well that's the problem I'm having.

Here, I'll help you out with the basic idea...picture the panel on the left side of this picture just above where you see the big square hole in the wall.

 

[gotmud]

perfect!!!! there you go!!! that's the ticket right there.... Look, if that was a panel you will notice the railing runs above it in the working space....

 

[cowboyjwc]

OK, so the local AHJ can make up whatever rules they want, right?

In MA, that can mean 100s of different sets of rules.

What is the best way to go about finding out all the local amendments? It seems if I ask if there are any amendments, they will have to give me ALL of them and I'll have to go through ALL of them to see which ones might apply.
Or I have to describe my plan for ALL of the work to be done to the AHJ so he can inform me of any violations ahead of time. That sounds like a royal PITA.

Never in a million years would I have thought height clearance at a residence would be amended locally.

Read my post #21, I'm not agreeing with it, but it is what it is.

And yes you do have to learn all of the local ammendments if you are going to be working in that area. We publish ours and so do most jurisdictions and a phone call can save you lots of $.

I brought up plan checks in another post and noted that an issue could have been solved then. Same thing here, since I do the plan checks, I would know that was going to be an issure and I would have noted it on the plans, but many areas do not require plan check and so things don't get seen until they've already been installed.

And by the way I do agree that this should have been caught at rough by the inspector. As the chief here I would probably over turn the call with a note in the file and move on to the next job.

 

[Smart $]

perfect!!!! there you go!!! that's the ticket right there.... Look, if that was a panel you will notice the railing runs above it in the working space....

I think its pretty much established your installation is in violation of city ordinance amending the code. The question now is if you have any recourse other than relocating the panel the extra distance at your expense...

First one, is the amendment legitimate. What state are you in (or the installation, if different)? I'm in Ohio, where local jurisdictions can amend code, but such ammendments have to be state approved to be legitimately enforceable. Cities can pass all the ordinances they want, as they are minimally bound by the state in doing so. Our state recognizes that city council's are not qualified to enact such amendments. Amending ordinances may get on the "books", but they also may not be enforceable, even when most believe they can.

Next question is the installation per a stamped plan?

Another thought... is there any chance of flipping the panel around to face outward and structurally enclosing it (with building materials)?

 

[gotmud]

I think its pretty much established your installation is in violation of city ordinance amending the code. The question now is if you have any recourse other than relocating the panel the extra distance at your expense...

First one, is the amendment legitimate. What state are you in (or the installation, if different)? I'm in Ohio, where local jurisdictions can amend code, but such ammendments have to be state approved to be legitimately enforceable. Cities can pass all the ordinances they want, as they are minimally bound by the state in doing so. Our state recognizes that city council's are not qualified to enact such amendments. Amending ordinances may get on the "books", but they also may not be enforceable, even when most believe they can.

Next question is the installation per a stamped plan?

Another thought... is there any chance of flipping the panel around to face outward and structurally enclosing it (with building materials)?

As far as I know the city electrical board votes on these ammendments to get them on the books as law and our city electrical inspectors enforce them. We may pay $100 to set up a meeting with the board to fight the inspectors but realistically no one ever wins......Two problems with the flipping of the panel. (1) the meter is on the back side. (2) it is against code here to have a lighting panel placed where you have to go outside to get to it and unless you built a whole diffent room for it, it would be outside..

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

could you type in exactly what the ammendment says. Something sounds wrong here.