Code Compliant Cable Tray?

[augie47]

CAM, I'm curious. From your post 50:
"Again, I haven't seen enforcement on this despite the fact that most AHJ's confirm it's a violation. I see this practice in virtually every commercial or industrial building and ALL new construction."

Two questions: Where ? and With what wiring method ?

I'm no world travler but the only place I have seen this syle tray used is for Cat 5 cables and other data/phone cables.

 

[CAM]

Are you suggesting that a mechanically discontinuous installation with a bonding jumper is OK, while a "crazy cut/bent" installation with a bonding jumper is not OK? I don't see how the extra basket in the "crazy cut/bent" installation is going to negatively impact either support or suitability as an EGC.

Cheers, Wayne

In a word, yes.

The NEC specifically allows mechanically discontinuous tray provided it is electrically continuous.

A great many AHJ's, some of whose comments I have posted, believe that radically altering a UL labeled product to the point where the label - the only information on the label and the only thing UL tested - is incorrect, is a violation.

Now if the AHJ has no problem with the gutting of the tray and if you're comfortable with the fact that whatever load rating it originally had is long long gone, you file down the sharp edges, you apply corrosion protection (not end caps, but corrosion protection), and you use a bonding jumper to go around the gutted section, then you may be okay. Of course by that time you've invested ten times more in labor than you would have spent just buying the fitting.

As for EGC performance, the reason the gutting of the tray is bad is that a basket tray is a one piece tray and rated on current carrying capacity based on the amount of metal in it. If you cut out large sections then the current capacity is obviously diminished. Since the purpose of the EGC is to take that current back to the source as fast as possible to trip a breaker and now most of the current path is gone you're creating a potentially very dangerous situation.

 

[CAM]

CAM, I'm curious. From your post 50:
"Again, I haven't seen enforcement on this despite the fact that most AHJ's confirm it's a violation. I see this practice in virtually every commercial or industrial building and ALL new construction."

Two questions: Where ? and With what wiring method ?

I'm no world travler but the only place I have seen this syle tray used is for Cat 5 cables and other data/phone cables.

Great question. Read some trade rags and you will see the majority of the advertising today is for using basket tray with MC cable. Basket + MC is very economical and in this economy saving money is the name of the game.

 

[qcroanoke]

Very interesting link;
http://www.b-line.com/product/CableTray/FLEXTRAY.asp

 

[jumper]

You mean like calling me a "troll"? That kind of character assassination?

Sounds about right to me..:roll:

Once again, you have selective reading. Mr. Dungar was never in that side bar. It was only alluded to, because you still have not come out and stated what you really want.

You have an axe to grind or a product to sell and are irritable because no one is buying it.

But what do I know, I am just a farm boy sparky and you have stated that you have no wish to speak to ones such as I.

 

[CAM]

Very interesting link;
http://www.b-line.com/product/CableTray/FLEXTRAY.asp

What is so interesting? Cooper just bought Flextray last year (formerly a FRENCH/American partnership) and I have great hopes that they will Americanize the brand with introduction of fittings.

 

[jim dungar]

You mean like calling me a "troll"? That kind of character assassination?

Sounds about right to me..:roll:

Please remind me, where I have said any disparaging remarks about you.

 

[qcroanoke]

What is so interesting? Cooper just bought Flextray last year (formerly a FRENCH/American partnership) and I have great hopes that they will Americanize the brand with introduction of fittings.

The fact that you cannot buy a fitting for their flex tray. And their installation instructions are very clear on how to make field modifications or did you even look?
The link was under installation instructions.....
Look under accessories not one fitting available all changes in direction of the tray were covered in installation instructions.

 

[CAM]

The fact that you cannot buy a fitting for their flex tray. And their installation instructions are very clear on how to make field modifications or did you even look?
The link was under installation instructions.....
Look under accessories not one fitting available all changes in direction of the tray were covered in installation instructions.

And, again, what is so interesting? Flextray was started as a vehicle to import FRENCH product to the American market. Cooper bought the company last year (an acknowledgment that basket has a foothold here and makes sense economically). Give them a year or two to Americanize the catalog and we'll see where they are.

Cooper is a good American company and I believe they will do the right thing with fittings soon.

 

[jim dungar]

A great many AHJ's, some of whose comments I have posted, believe that radically altering a UL labeled product to the point where the label - the only information on the label and the only thing UL tested - is incorrect, is a violation.

The only UL label on the product says it is a 'grounding conductor' not a support method. UL does not test for fitness as a support.

Now if the AHJ has no problem with the gutting of the tray and if you're comfortable with the fact that whatever load rating it originally had is long long gone, you file down the sharp edges, you apply corrosion protection (not end caps, but corrosion protection), and you use a bonding jumper to go around the gutted section, then you may be okay.

You admit, basket tray may be cut and used when it is not serving as an EGC unless it is jumpered, and that an AHJ would not be wrong for allowing it.

Of course by that time you've invested ten times more in labor than you would have spent just buying the fitting.

Looks like this is the real issue. You don't think installers should have the right to waste money on installation costs.

As for EGC performance, the reason the gutting of the tray is bad is that a basket tray is a one piece tray and rated on current carrying capacity based on the amount of metal in it. If you cut out large sections then the current capacity is obviously diminished. Since the purpose of the EGC is to take that current back to the source as fast as possible to trip a breaker and now most of the current path is gone you're creating a potentially very dangerous situation.

Has anyone in this thread, said an adequate EGC should not be ensured?

I am not French. I am a proud American, born on a military base in the Territory of Alaska.

Que Dieu b?nisse les ?tats-Unis

 

[roger]

Cam, below is an excerpt from an article from Electrical Contractor Magazine which can be linked to from your website, you may want to reconsider linking to them. :grin: Here is the article in full.

OBO Bettermann Wire Mesh Cable Tray System is available in 2- and 4-inch loading depths with widths ranging from 2 to 24 inches. The product, which features a variety of standard mounting options and meets all standards for UL grounding classifications, is suitable for wall and underfloor applications as well as ceiling applications. All bends, crossovers, angles, and tees can be field modified, for easy routing adaptability, both in new construction and in retrofit projects.
Standard finishes include zinc electroplated, stainless steel, hot-dipped galvanized, and powder coated.

T.J. Cope, Inc.’s CAT-TRAY welded wire mesh cable management system, available in nine widths, offers self-splicing bars, welded to one end of the tray, which speed connection of tray sections.
For straight runs that conform to UL grounding standards, the installer bolts a special clip onto the connecting end of each bar to maintain electrical continuity. For situations where the self-splicing bar is not applicable, a new rapid splice bar offers fast clasp-type connecting without nuts and bolts. Notched pedestal brackets, U-bolts, and nuts are available for installing the baskets on flat or corner edging of pedestal legs under raised computer floors.


MPHusky Techtray features a tighter-than-typical 2- by 2-inch grid that provides twice the support surface of the usual 2- by 4-inch grid and includes a pair of splice plates and necessary nuts and bolts with each straight section. Available in widths from 2 to 24 inches and depths of 1 to 6 inches, the product, which is also used in overhead and underfloor applications, features corner connectors without any sharp edges that can also be used on tees or crosses. Installers can also field fabricate fittings by cutting wires and using clips to hold segments together.


GS Metals Flextray Cable Management System, a lightweight, wire-basket-style cable tray system suitable for underfloors or hanging from the ceiling and available in various depths and widths, features total on-site flexibility. Using two specialized proprietary installation tools, installers cut and bend the wire mesh to create drops, bends, climbs and intersections, attaining finished edges with no sharp points.
Special Conduit Attachment Fittings, which come unassembled and are available in four diameters ranging from ? through 1? inches, facilitate quick attachment of conduit to the tray and neat cable drop through the conduit fitting.


Cable Management Solutions (CMS) 501 Series Wall Snake, part of the company’s Snake Tray line of flexible, open steel cable trays that are completely bendable by hand without tools or the need to cut wires, is a perimeter wall mount solution suitable for long linear installations where space is at a premium, such as above the ceiling grid. The trays are designed to allow direct attachment to a wall using mounting rings that run along the center spine, eliminating the need for additional brackets or hanging hardware. Available in 4-, 9-, and 25-square-inch pathways, the trays hang with standard fasteners.
Suitable for raised access floor installations,

Roger

 

[rbalex]

...I am a proud American, born on a military base in the Territory of Alaska...

So was I. (Ladd Field; near Fairbanks)

 

[CAM]

You admit, basket tray may be cut and used when it is not serving as an EGC unless it is jumpered, and that an AHJ would not be wrong for allowing it.

English is tricky. You should re-read what I wrote because you haven't got it quite right there at all.

 

[roger]

English is tricky. You should re-read what I wrote because you haven't got it quite right there at all.

Wrong, you are the one who has continuosly misread or selectively read through out this thread, it's obvious that you never came here to learn and you were never really interested in any opinion that was not inline with yours, so with that being said, this thread is closed.

Roger