EST3 and QS1 | Battery Simulation

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Khrno

Member
Hi everyone, i'm configuring some QS1 and EST3 panels. But our client request us not to use the batteries (24 Vcd back up) for the panel because they will use an UPS for the whole system. The thing is that we need to, somehow, suppres the message trouble that will appear at the display.

I'm not an expert configuring those panels, and this request seems somehow near to impossible, if any of u have any suggestion to achieve this, I'll be glad to hear it.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
HBut our client request us not to use the batteries (24 Vcd back up) for the panel because they will use an UPS for the whole system.

Tell the client they do not get that option.

Where I am the panels will have their own battery back up.

The panel will supervise the battery and charger.

I believe you will find that NFPA 72 prohibits what the client wants.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Tell the client they do not get that option.

Where I am the panels will have their own battery back up.

The panel will supervise the battery and charger.

I believe you will find that NFPA 72 prohibits what the client wants.

You are correct.

Per NFPA 72, 2002 and 2007 edition, section 4.4.1.5.1, you must have standby batteries that will carry the panel for at least 4 hours. In addition, the generator must meet the requirements of NFPA 110, Chapter 4, for a Type 60, Class 24, Level 2 system. Installation per NFPA 70, article 701.
 
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Khrno

Member
well the panle will be power up by the UPS, not quite sure but that may over come the NFPA issue.

how does the battery charger works? is it possible to disable hardware mode?
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
well the panle will be power up by the UPS, not quite sure but that may over come the NFPA issue.

how does the battery charger works? is it possible to disable hardware mode?

Okay, let's try the unsubtle approach....

YOU DON'T GET A CHOICE!!!!!

A UPS is not one of the listed methods for supplying secondary power to a fire alarm control panel. The code says "A storage battery dedicated to the fire alarm system..." No manufacturer is going to help you "rig" the panel into believing that it has batteries connected when it doesn't. That would undoubtedly void the UL listing.

What's the big deal, anyway? Even if you have to provide a separate battery box due to the size of the batteries, it's under fifteen hundred dollars, tops, installed with the batteries.
 

Khrno

Member
yeah i do get that, it violate both NFPA and UL, but our client is such and STUBBORN!!

I just wanna make sure that there where no option for that


I thank you all for your replies.
 

junjun

Member
if you really have to follow the client...you can do 2 things

1. just hide the pseudo points of battery on object configuration on sdu database of that project...or
2. just connect the positive (+) output of battery terminals to the positive (+) output of the auxillary power supply.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
if you really have to follow the client...you can do 2 things

1. just hide the pseudo points of battery on object configuration on sdu database of that project...or
2. just connect the positive (+) output of battery terminals to the positive (+) output of the auxillary power supply.

I'll grant that my knowledge of the EST3 panel is mighty slim, but I can't wait to see what happens when the power supply tries to float charge the aux power :grin:!
 

DM2-Inc

Senior Member
Location
Houston, Texas
We have a similar request from a client presently, however it's not in the US.

There have already been several posts indicating that it violates NFPA 72 but NFPA 72 does have a loop hole called "...acceptable to the Authority having jurisdiction..." (AHJ). When someone attempts to navigate through this loop hole, it's usually followed by some question as to who the AHJ is, and the answer depends...If it's in the US, OSHA has the final say and what they say trumps the local Fire Marshal, as I witnessed last year.

Assuming that a legitimate AHJ has granted permission to use the UPS, you need to know...
  1. Is the UPS power going through an Inverter and to the panel as 120 VAC, or is it DC?
  2. Is the UPS Grounded or Floating?
  3. Will the UPS shutdown below a given voltage and if so, what is that voltage?

Many UPS System have an inverter so the power to you're system would be AC. This doesn't solve the issue of not connecting batteries to keep the panel out of fault, but a resistor across the battery circuit may help. NFPA 72 also has requirements that state the system has to be designed at "...85%..." of the name plate rated voltage. This raises many questions about the UPS, that are out of your control. Who's to say that someone doesn't add loads to the UPS, which might compromise the standby duration?

One issue you'll likely have is that if it is DC, most UPS systems use a "Grounded" power supply where as a fire panel needs a "Floating" power supply. Fire panel power supplies are "Floating" so they're isolated from ground. With a grounded UPS, you may have a ground fault on the fire panel.

UL requires fire panel power supplies to cut off after a given voltage so as not to "...perturb..." the processor (didn't make that up, it's happens to one manufacture and the result was leathal).

You may find it difficult to provide external 24 VDC to a conventional fire panel as the termination point in the panel is usually the battery charger.
 

junjun

Member
junjun

junjun

i am certified est-3 fire alarm programmer..and i have done this many times if i want to fool my client..
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
i am certified est-3 fire alarm programmer..and i have done this many times if i want to fool my client..

So Fire Marshals, insurance carriers, local inspection departments, not to mention the liability issues don't bother you as far as violating NFPA requirements and "fooling" a client?

Roger
 

junjun

Member
well..if the client or consultant insist you don't have a choice otherwise you will not get your paycheck..specially here in middle east:D..anyway I just want to tell that this is possible..
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
well..if the client or consultant insist you don't have a choice otherwise you will not get your paycheck..specially here in middle east:D..anyway I just want to tell that this is possible..

Well this is not the Middle east it is a professional electricians forum and we do not advise how to break the law.

My suggestion is you stop working for folks that expect you to do these things.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
well..if the client or consultant insist you don't have a choice otherwise you will not get your paycheck
I always have a choice and I still get my paycheck when choosing to do things right regardless of what a customer or consultant wants. As Iwire points out, if there is a real chance I wont get paid because I intend to install per codes and industry standards, I can walk.

Roger
 

junjun

Member
Mr. roger thanks for the comments..anyway i just answered khrno's post regarding battery simulation of est panel..have a nice day!
 
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