Why we can't compete with handy man.

[brantmacga]

Any idiot with a chain saw can cut down a tree but making that tree fall where you want it to and doing it in a safe manner can take a little training.

lol i've been that idiot before.

i've actually had to turn around to find the dang tree i was cutting down. but i've never attempted to cut down a tree that had any chance of landing on a house, car, small child, puppy, etc. . .


anyhow,

if i were you guys, i'd come to the realization that you do not attempt to compete with handymen and stop worrying about them. every homeowner knows a licensed contractor in any trade is going to cost more than a handyman; if they were willing to spend the money, they would've called you in the first place. these people are not your customer.

 

[Strife]

Looks like my OP is heading fast to top of most popular topics of this month. Which makes me feel I'm not the only one dealing with this frustration.
I'd like to clarify something (after reading some of the posts). Least in our state (Florida), there's no such thing as a handyman business, or license. I just realized that some states could be different. Down here when we say handy man we mean unlicensed, uninsured....etc people.
I do a lot of work without a permit, but I always tell my customers, regardless if I have a permit or not, I do it per code.
It's not about being a rocket scientist, it's about that pesky red wire behind the blue roll, and it'd be so easy to just grab the blue one, it's about that old rommex ground not having a ground screw, and just tied behind a box screw, and, GOD it'd be so easy just to ignore it. or that panel replacement without a ground bar and the ground wires connected to the neutral bars.
Why do I do it per code regardless if I had a permit or not? Because I aknowledge that the rules in the code are not pulled out of someone behind because they liked it so (although lately I start to wonder) therefore I'd like to be able to sleep at night, without having to worry that in a month or a year I could kill someone or set a house on fire. Look, I'm not saying the code is foolproof, but least it's a set of rules that I can install by and call it "pretty safe". (I'll go on a tangent here) I have 3 children and I'll never be able to shelter them from every single danger, but least no one can blame me that I didn't take the required precautions.
I agree it's hard to tell the customer the receptacle will cost 150 dollars and permit fees and inspections another 400. So to that respect I do blame the cities for being both greedy and unreasonable for a lot of people not pulling permits. I mean a permit it'll cost you MINIMUM 100 bucks, then the time to do drawings, time spent to apply, pick it up, waiting for inspector. In the era of computers you'd think you could apply for a permit online, drawings, applications, and all. But no... even if I do a 500 dollars job I have to have the owner notarized signature on the permit (more time to get that). And, heaven forbid, you got a job of more than 2K, most cities down here will want a notice filed.
So that part is painful, and that's why I skip permitting if I don't have to. But a lot of jobs that I come across are a far cry from this.
As my OP was showing, we're talking BASIC wiring methods that can be very dangerous. I have all the times people asking me if I do resi, my answer is always "I do it, but I can not compete with handymen". If they want further explanation, I tell them. I had a few jobs where my material cost to do it right was more what the handyman was charging for the whole job. And my OP show why.
So I guess in the final I do blame the cities. I'm tired of having to jump thru hoops, to make it right, to spend 1K a year for licenses, 3K for auto insurance, 2K for workers comp, 3K for liability, and more other, just to have to compete with people with none of the above, who have no clue about safety. And where's the city enforcing that?
Like I said, I think it was criminal what the guy in my OP did, why doesn't the city do anything about it?
You know what they do? They write it as work without permit and most times they think I did it ( as I'm the one who pulls the permit now)
So I hope this clarifies a little what I meant.

 

[LEO2854]

Leo, I have no idea what the heck you are trying to say or how you think that applies

But per the MA state law only people doing electrical work for hire have to pull permits.

Homeowners doing electrical work for free in their own home are not required to pull permits.

For that matter anyone doing electrical work for free does not have to pull a permit.

Well bob as you can see there a lot of confusion on this issue the fact that they still use the words "For hire" which date's back to the year 1915 "old speak"

What i am trying to say is the homeoner has the right to perform his own Electricial Work but must pull a permit according to 780 CMR and have the work inspected by the inspector of wires and the reason for that is they do not want the home owner to be able to create a fire and or Eletrocution hazerd.

But if you look in the mass code you will not find All the laws pertaining to Electrical work .

If you look on the board of Electrician Examiners web site you will find more laws and regs for Electrical work.,,But you will not find All the laws and mass regs pertaining to Electrical work.

"WHY"? "IDK"
I own a house and do my own Electrical and i forgot to pull a permit woops
the Electrical inspector "Will never Know" He lives next Door:grin::grin:

If you have a CEU Class with a mix of Electrical inspectors and other Electricians the whole weekend would be spent arguing about this subject.

In my op the Board of Electricians Should concentrate on wrighting all the regs into the mass code instead of having the laws and reg 's spred all over the building code and other mass laws.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Leo, I have no idea what the heck you are trying to say or how you think that applies

But per the MA state law only people doing electrical work for hire have to pull permits.

Homeowners doing electrical work for free in their own home are not required to pull permits.

For that matter anyone doing electrical work for free does not have to pull a permit.

Not saying your right or wrong but that does sound a bit crazy on there part. Your saying a home owner can get his buddies together and wire a house with no permit or inspections. Seems if anything ever needs inspected that this sure needs it. Your state is leaving the back door wide open for handymen and unlicensed electricians. Owner simply slips them cash at end of the day. That i am sure you agree is asking for problems.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

Your saying a home owner can get his buddies together and wire a house with no permit or inspections

I doubt there's any POCO that would turn power on to a building without an inspection in place. Regardless of who wired it.

 

[Mulrooney]

Handymen can do it

Handymen can do it

In New Hampshire chapter 319-C states: No electrical installation shall be made for compensation, unless made by an electrician or other person licensed by the electricians board except as provided in this chapter.
In this chapter 319-c:3 EXCEPTIONS it states, This chapter shall not apply to the following: Exception # VIII states Regular employees of owners or leasees of real property doing incidental electrical work, or persons whose occupation is the doing of miscellaneous jobs of manual labor in the course of which some incidental electrical work is done.
The last half of that exception seems to leave the door wide open for handymen to do electrical installations. I recently had an issue with this exception as an insulation company was doing minor electrical work for one of my customers. They were able to work cheaper since they were already on site doing other things and I had to consider traveling for small one hour jobs.
I sent an email to one of our state inspectors who had supposedly given his blessing to this practice. They heard back from the state and no longer can do it. I never got a respose as to what their reasoning was, but the exception is still there for handymen.

 

[Mulrooney]

It's not right

It's not right

I'd just like to make another point on this subject. In New Hampshire a journeyman electrician with 20-30 years experience is not allowed to do electrical installation for compensation without workiing under a master electricians license/supervision. What could the reasoning be that would make a handyman with no schooling, no training, no supervision, and no insurance for electrical installations more qualified than the 20 year journeyman. I am so confused.

 

[growler]

I think it was criminal what the guy in my OP did, why doesn't the city do anything about it?
You know what they do? They write it as work without permit and most times they think I did it ( as I'm the one who pulls the permit now)
So I hope this clarifies a little what I meant.

The city did do something, they wrote it up as unpermitted work. Now the homeowner is forced to get a licensed electrician because the handyman is out ( he doesn't have a license and can't get a permit ).

Now you are in the cat-bird seat, you can really stick it to this homeowner.

Now that you are there ask a few questions about this handyman. How did the homeowner hear about him? Does he advertise? Did he leave an invoice or contract or business card? Tell the homeowner that you need this information for your records because you don't won't to have to rewire the whole house and you need some information as to who is accountable if something were to go wrong.

If you can come up with any documented evidence that this guy is doing work for hire without a license then you can file a complaint against him.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I doubt there's any POCO that would turn power on to a building without an inspection in place. Regardless of who wired it.

They might not have a choice. They are a public service and if the building was not required an inspection or permit they likely are forced to serve it.

Like all laws they start off great with best of intent but then leave back doors wide open with loop holes.

Handymen in general are not qualified to even replace a light fixture or a receptacle let alone run any wire. There are a few exceptions but very few. You might have a man that has 20 years of electrical work behind him and he may have even been licensed at one time. For what ever reasons he might have opened up a business as a handyman. What we then have is a qualified but unlicensed unpermited man doing electrical work.
There are many ways to work around how they get paid. Often the owner knows the man is not licensed but do not care because the price is far cheaper.

No you can not compete with this man. At best you might get a few fined but few counties and states rearly go hunting to bust them. Simply far to costly and difficult to prosicute. Owner and worker both show up in court and say no money changed hands and case is over.
They can and sometime do set up a sting. Easy enough to do, just place ad on craigs list looking for a man to do some minor electrical work. With bait in place they will be busy.

Do not know about other states but here in FL an owner can pull a permit to build his own house and do all the trades. I built several homes myself using this loop hole. The inspectors knowed who i was and could care less. I never asked for special treatment and got inspected same as any contractor. I did have the advantage of a father that was a carpenter and friends to teach me what i did not know about other trades. Call it what you like but it goes on every day in FL.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

The city did do something, they wrote it up as unpermitted work. Now the homeowner is forced to get a licensed electrician because the handyman is out ( he doesn't have a license and can't get a permit ).

Now you are in the cat-bird seat, you can really stick it to this homeowner.

Now that you are there ask a few questions about this handyman. How did the homeowner hear about him? Does he advertise? Did he leave an invoice or contract or business card? Tell the homeowner that you need this information for your records because you don't won't to have to rewire the whole house and you need some information as to who is accountable if something were to go wrong.

If you can come up with any documented evidence that this guy is doing work for hire without a license then you can file a complaint against him.

Yes ,they busted this one. And it opens up questions about how they managed to do it. To see the work they had to gain entrance to the building first. What many do not know is that you can refuse to let inspectors in your home. You can even refuse to allow a cop in your house without a search warrant or probable cause to believe a crime is action that needs 911 type action and they better be right.
Now lets look at what they got in the OP. So they forced him to get a permit. He could likely have pulled the permit himself. And from looks of this i suspect he did the work himself. Hope we keep updated here as to if anyone actually gets arrested,fined or what ever else. Chances are he will be charged a higher permit fee, inspected with fine tooth comb and job signed off. It is good that this job got caught.

 

[growler]

So they forced him to get a permit. He could likely have pulled the permit himself. And from looks of this i suspect he did the work himself.

How they handle that situation in many of our local jurisdictions is they will let the homeowner pull the permit. If he calls for inspection they do come out and if everything looks OK it passes. If they come out an it's just minor violations and the homeowner can correct them he can do so and call for a re-inspection.

What normally happens is that if they have to come out two or three times and things are not looking any better and it's obvious that the homeowner doesn't have a clue as to what he's doing then he will be required to hire a licensed electrician. And the inspectors kind of like to meet and talk with you.

In the county where I live to pull a homeowner permit you have to sign a document and swear under oath that you will either do the work or hire licensed contractors. Now if you want to hire a jack-leg electrician you are guilty of "false swearing" because the document is notarized.

A homeowner or even a contractor's permit can be rescinded at anytime for cause and one of the causes can be lack of competence.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

How they handle that situation in many of our local jurisdictions is they will let the homeowner pull the permit. If he calls for inspection they do come out and if everything looks OK it passes. If they come out an it's just minor violations and the homeowner can correct them he can do so and call for a re-inspection.

What normally happens is that if they have to come out two or three times and things are not looking any better and it's obvious that the homeowner doesn't have a clue as to what he's doing then he will be required to hire a licensed electrician. And the inspectors kind of like to meet and talk with you.

In the county where I live to pull a homeowner permit you have to sign a document and swear under oath that you will either do the work or hire licensed contractors. Now if you want to hire a jack-leg electrician you are guilty of "false swearing" because the document is notarized.

A homeowner or even a contractor's permit can be rescinded at anytime for cause and one of the causes can be lack of competence.

What many ahj do is charge a reinspect fee for first tag. Then double it on 2 nd red tag and quad it for 3rd. After 3 red tags for same issue they would call the contractor in for a chat.
From what we seen in OP i would think they need to remove the home owners tools

 

[bthielen]

I can fully understand all the sentiments in this thread. There is a problem though that I have learned most contractors fail to recognize.

Consider my mother-in-law. She's retired and living on less than $600/month SS. If a light switch goes bad she doesn't have the knowledge to fix it and to hire a contractor will cost her over $100.00! To replace a $5 light switch? I realize that contractors have expenses but is there any justification for not finding some way to provide your services in a more graduated price structure? I've kicked myself for not pursuing a electrical master's licesnse because I know that with nothing more than a tool belt on my hip I could be busy full-time offering a low-cost electrical service alternative to fill that empty niche. I know of a carpenter that did that as a retirement plan and he was turning down jobs. No overhead costs so his price for the carpentry was charged by the hour for his labor expense only. If he needed extra help for a job, he added that cost to the bill.

One of the biggest problems facing homeowners is getting serviced by a contractor in a reasonable amount of time or at all. You all seem more interested in grabbing that mult-million dollar contract than you are at picking up a job to replace a light switch. That's fully understandable but the average homeowner that needs that light switch replaced and doesn't have the knowledge to do it themself is stuck waiting....and waiting....and waiting....for a contractor to first accept the contract and then do it in the time as promised. It sucks to be that homeowner!

It's these situations that encourage the hiring of handy-men even though it may be illegal.

 

[bluesmoke...oops]

Consider all the expenses a licensed contractor has to cover their own liability that the handyman doesn't and you will understand the costs involved. All jobs have to be priced to cover employee wages, as well as insurance costs should the employee either do something wrong, or should something happen to the employee.

 

[growler]

I've kicked myself for not pursuing a electrical master's licesnse because I know that with nothing more than a tool belt on my hip I could be busy full-time offering a low-cost electrical service alternative to fill that empty niche.

The reason it's an empty nicke is because everyone that's tried it so far has starved to death. Yes you could be real busy providing low cost electrical service because you would need a day job to support your after hours hobby.

I can tell you haven't given this much thought so I'll help you out. The number of jobs where you just get to go in and change out a switch are few and far between. The problem with just working with a tool belt will problaby become apparent on the first job. You check the switch and there is nothing wrong with it so the next check is the fixture but wait you need a ten foot ladder and all you have is a tool belt. So you buy yourself a few ladders and now you need a way to haul them around so next is a van but since you use it for business you also need commercial insurance and this just keeps on in this manner until you get lots of overhead.

The problem is that no one has ever been able to make a living as a switch changer outer so either you become an electrical service contractor or a handyman. The handyman doesn't normally have all the tools and materials to do the job right but he doesn't let that stop him and goes ahead and does the job anyway.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I do feel sorry for some that simply can not afford the price of an electrician. Hopefully they have a son or son inlaw that can help either by doing the job or footing the bill. I never charged my father inlaw or step dad a penny and often even paid for the material myself.Not everyone is that lucky.
There are a few 1 man shops out there that will be bit cheaper but they still want to make a living. To change even a simple switch requires travel time both ways and that assumes he has the switch on his truck. You want it done for how much ? Be fair about this you want him to fix the problem and that means skilled enough to do whatever it takes.

Even handymen are not cheap. It is the owners problem as to who they find and risk they are willing to take by hiring an unlicensed worker. Sometimes no problem but thats the risk.

 

[bthielen]

You make it sound as if the cost to run a one-man, home-based, low-keyed electrical business out of a van would be similar to managing a 50 employee, industrial/commercial electrical contracting company. You must think I’m pretty gullible and maybe I fit that description but I figure as long as someone doesn’t fill that niche, the shoddy work you’ve been seeing will continue because the average homeowner can’t justify paying for your overhead.

What about that overhead? You mentioned a parts inventory. Let’s see. You buy them at wholesale, for convenience sake you store them in your van or at home until needed, then charge a premium to your customers when you use them. The only cost you have is the storage space and that’s paid for by the markup. If not, then you need to re-evaluate your processes. So you’ve got a van and a few tools. If a job comes up requiring more specialized equipment, you rent it and bill it in to the job.

I run a small part time farming operation. I manage that farm entirely on its own and do not support that operation using income from my regular job. I am quite certain that my cost in equipment, tools, and land is considerably higher than it would be to run the kind of small time electrical operation I’m talking about. Despite my overhead costs, I don’t charge anywhere near $100/hr. when I contract myself out. I'm not going to get rich doing it but I'm satisfied. I'm too old now to consider changing careers and obtaining my masters so all I can do is offer my opinion - good, bad, or otherwise.

We have a local doctor that opened a small clinic and chose not to seek the high salaries typical of your average doctor. Instead, she’s more interested in providing a service to people because she cares more about people and integrity than about the almighty dollar. She also reduces paperwork and costs by not filling out and submitting insurance claims. She leaves that responsibility to her customers where it belongs. Her price for an office visit make it much more affordable for people that have little or no insurance to obtain medical care. She takes it a step further and offers something you rarely see anymore – house calls. Wow, a doctor that provides a service, is not out to get rich, and knows her customers by name and not by their insurance policy number! Who would-a thunk?

I’ve read plenty of boasting on this site about how lucrative the electrician’s career can be. Maybe it is well deserved because unlike us farmers you are highly trained, educated, and specialized but it seems to me that if you guys really cared as much about safety and quality as you claim; the greed factor could be set aside once in a while to help the average person afford your high costs, especially those on fixed/low incomes. Nobody’s asking you to work for nothing. We all know you are well paid for what you do but is it always necessary to be well paid?

 

[stevenje]

the greed factor could be set aside once in a while to help the average person afford your high costs, especially those on fixed/low incomes.

If the truth got out, I think you would be surprised on how many of us give back to our communities in many different ways. Please don't lump us all together as greedy and uncaring to the plight of those around us that are not so fortunate.

 

[growler]

I run a small part time farming operation. I manage that farm entirely on its own and do not support that operation using income from my regular job. I am quite certain that my cost in equipment, tools, and land is considerably higher than it would be to run the kind of small time electrical operation I?m talking about. Despite my overhead costs, I don?t charge anywhere near $100/hr. when I contract myself out.

The farming operation may support it's self but does it support you?

Now you don't need to be a master electrician to start an electrical contracting business. You can hire a master and then you can charge whatever you feel is right. If you feel that it's all profit then cut out your share and operate at cost.

You will be able to find help at bargain rates due to the bad economy. You will even find more than the average number of customers looking for a deal. You can even pick up some tools and equipment cheap. Things have never looked better to try out your ideas.

And don't worry about being to old, it's much better to go broke when you are old, not so long to live

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

You make it sound as if the cost to run a one-man, home-based, low-keyed electrical business out of a van would be similar to managing a 50 employee, industrial/commercial electrical contracting company. You must think I?m pretty gullible and maybe I fit that description but I figure as long as someone doesn?t fill that niche, the shoddy work you?ve been seeing will continue because the average homeowner can?t justify paying for your overhead.

What about that overhead? You mentioned a parts inventory. Let?s see. You buy them at wholesale, for convenience sake you store them in your van or at home until needed, then charge a premium to your customers when you use them. The only cost you have is the storage space and that?s paid for by the markup. If not, then you need to re-evaluate your processes. So you?ve got a van and a few tools. If a job comes up requiring more specialized equipment, you rent it and bill it in to the job.

I run a small part time farming operation. I manage that farm entirely on its own and do not support that operation using income from my regular job. I am quite certain that my cost in equipment, tools, and land is considerably higher than it would be to run the kind of small time electrical operation I?m talking about. Despite my overhead costs, I don?t charge anywhere near $100/hr. when I contract myself out. I'm not going to get rich doing it but I'm satisfied. I'm too old now to consider changing careers and obtaining my masters so all I can do is offer my opinion - good, bad, or otherwise.

We have a local doctor that opened a small clinic and chose not to seek the high salaries typical of your average doctor. Instead, she?s more interested in providing a service to people because she cares more about people and integrity than about the almighty dollar. She also reduces paperwork and costs by not filling out and submitting insurance claims. She leaves that responsibility to her customers where it belongs. Her price for an office visit make it much more affordable for people that have little or no insurance to obtain medical care. She takes it a step further and offers something you rarely see anymore ? house calls. Wow, a doctor that provides a service, is not out to get rich, and knows her customers by name and not by their insurance policy number! Who would-a thunk?

I?ve read plenty of boasting on this site about how lucrative the electrician?s career can be. Maybe it is well deserved because unlike us farmers you are highly trained, educated, and specialized but it seems to me that if you guys really cared as much about safety and quality as you claim; the greed factor could be set aside once in a while to help the average person afford your high costs, especially those on fixed/low incomes. Nobody?s asking you to work for nothing. We all know you are well paid for what you do but is it always necessary to be well paid?

If you really feel this way thats great. Your age is not a factor in getting a license. But it starts there. Do you even have a clue how hard it is to pass the test ? Do you know what it will cost you in books and time ? Now go to step 2 and get setup, truck,phone,advertise,insurance for liability (not cheap),tools, inventory, book keeper. Now that you have spent about 20 k and weeks of work tell me that you will be happy to get a few jobs a day doing minor repairs for a cheap price. So you think $100 to change a switch is too high ? Whats your suggested price ? $40 ? $50 ?. You will need that farm to support your electrical business. But thats OK cause you want to help the poor.
Most of us want good pay to feed our families, is that wrong ? You seem to have very little business skills.