Why we can't compete with handy man.

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iwire said:
And many will not. :)

Here in MA you can work on your own place.
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Yes a homeowner can do his own Electrical work in the home he lives in , but still must pull a permit and have the work inspected by the Electrical inspector:)
 
iwire said:
No that is false, some towns say that but it is not backed up by any MA regulation.
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I believe the regulation says doing work "for hire". I have done work on my own house with no permits.

I know of at least one town that will not issue homeowner permits.

BTW, based on what I see on a daily basis, a license really means nothing and many inspectors are failed electricians.
 
zog said:
Same thing goes the other way too, having an electrical license and owning an IR camera does not make you a thermagrapher, or downloading some software does not mean you should be doing arc flash or coordination studies. EE's have to deal with the same "DIY" type competetion from under qualified people.
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You are dead on zog. If you are not qualified to do the task, then let the professionals do it. Your example fits me to a tee. I may have a Masters license but I am not qualified to preform arc flash or coordination studies and have no business doing so.
 
iwire said:
I know you guys hate to hear this but the work we do in most homes is not rocket science. :grin:
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This is very true. Electrical work is not all that complicated. But there is a problem with that perception, just because a person doesn't need to know a lot doesn't mean they don't need to know anything.

Any idiot with a chain saw can cut down a tree but making that tree fall where you want it to and doing it in a safe manner can take a little training.
 
The biggest problem I see with handyman type work is the fact that it's pretty well understood by both the homeowner and the handyman that the job is not being sold based on quality work. If the owner wanted top quality he would have hired an electrician or a plumber or whatever to do the work in the first place.

I have caught handymen doing some of this real hack work and they always say the same thing, "I'm not an electrician, (plumber, carpenter, ect.)". Most understand that they are getting a sub-standard rate and that it's OK if they don't deliver quality.

If you are getting ceiling fans installed for $35 ea. then don't expect that person to start useing fan rated boxes. The only way they can make a buck is to do the work as fast and cheap as possible.

There is actually a great demand for this type of work. Some people can't afford to have things done right and others are just to cheap. I talked to a slum lord the other day and he would like to get a real electrician but only pay handyman rates but that's not going to happen so he's back to the handyman.
 
There will always be people doing electrical without license , permits ,inspections or insurance and they do it for cash . In most states an owner can pull a permit to build his own house. What many do is hire under the table a man they think can do the trades and they save $$$$$$$$$$$$ . Why would they not hire the same man that wires threw the week for an EC ? They get him to work evenings or weekends and pay him in cash. Without the overhead,insurance and such the man makes far more. Not saying this is always smart but simply happens and very little or nothing the AHJ will do to stop this. If questioned all he needs to say is he is doing the job for free. No paper trail = no taxes
 
lakee911 said:
How about not for hire (no payment), but in exchange for good and/or services. Legal?

'Install that thar plug fer ya'll in 'stange for some home cookin' dinner!'
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Methinks the IRS would consider such a trade as income. You received something of value in exchange for the services rendered.
 
LEO2854 said:
Bob
It is in the massachusetts building code CMR 780 51.00.
http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/dps/BuildingCode7th/780051.pdf

Section 5110.1 of the 7th Edition of the Massachusetts State Building Code
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As far as I can find, it says nothing about electrical permits - just says "obtaining the required building permit and all other required permits". If you read here:

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter143/Section3l ("Regulations relative to electrical wiring and fixtures; notice of electrical installation")

"No person shall install for hire any electrical wiring or fixtures subject to this section without first or within five days after commencing the work giving notice to the inspector of wires appointed pursuant to the provisions of section thirty-two of chapter one hundred and sixty-six. Said notice shall be given by mailing or delivering a permit application form prepared by the board, to said inspector."

Sounds to me like if "not for hire", no requirement for a "permit application". But then again, I'm not a lawer...
 
SAC said:
If you read here:

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter143/Section3l ("Regulations relative to electrical wiring and fixtures; notice of electrical installation")

"No person shall install for hire any electrical wiring or fixtures subject to this section without first or within five days after commencing the work giving notice to the inspector of wires appointed pursuant to the provisions of section thirty-two of chapter one hundred and sixty-six. Said notice shall be given by mailing or delivering a permit application form prepared by the board, to said inspector."

Sounds to me like if "not for hire", no requirement for a "permit application". But then again, I'm not a lawer...
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That is exactly how I understand it.
 
And the requirement to have a license also only applies to people getting paid.

CHAPTER 141 Section 1A. No person, firm or corporation shall enter into, engage in, or work at the business or occupation of installing wires, conduits, apparatus, devices, fixtures, or other appliances for carrying or using electricity for light, heat, power, fire warning or security system purposes, unless such person, firm or corporation shall be licensed by the state examiners of electricians in accordance with this chapter and, with respect to security systems, unless such person, firm or corporation shall also be licensed by the commissioner of public safety in accordance with the provisions of sections fifty-seven to sixty-one, inclusive, of chapter one hundred and forty-seven.

This chapter shall not apply to: a person not engaged in the business described in this section who employs or contracts for the services of a person, firm or corporation engaged in such business; or to an apprentice employed by a person, firm or corporation licensed in accordance with this chapter; or to an agent, employee or assistant of a person, firm or corporation licensed in accordance with this chapter who does not engage in or perform the actual work described in this section.
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lakee911 said:
How about not for hire (no payment), but in exchange for good and/or services. Legal?

'Install that thar plug fer ya'll in 'stange for some home cookin' dinner!'
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If you receive anything of value it is payment.
But the way it is done is cash without witness
Or perhaps you just swap some labor for a trade they do. No paoer trail.Have i done it ? Done what? Where ? Who me ?
 
SAC said:
As far as I can find, it says nothing about electrical permits - just says "obtaining the required building permit and all other required permits". If you read here:

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter143/Section3l ("Regulations relative to electrical wiring and fixtures; notice of electrical installation")

"No person shall install for hire any electrical wiring or fixtures subject to this section without first or within five days after commencing the work giving notice to the inspector of wires appointed pursuant to the provisions of section thirty-two of chapter one hundred and sixty-six. Said notice shall be given by mailing or delivering a permit application form prepared by the board, to said inspector."

Sounds to me like if "not for hire", no requirement for a "permit application". But then again, I'm not a lawer...
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the words "For hire" aplies to "US"licensed Electricians, not handyman or homeowners.

5101.5 Specialized Codes. In accordance with
M.G.L. c. 143, ? 96, specialized codes, rules or
regulations pertaining to building construction,
reconstruction, alteration, repair or demolition, and
inspection promulgated by, and under the authority
of the various boards which have been authorized by
the general court shall be incorporated into
780 CMR 51.00 through 99.00. Areas regulated by
the specialized codes shall require that all such work
performed is designed, installed and inspected in
accordance with the specialized codes. For
governing regulations addressing the approval,
design, installation and maintenance of
fossil-fuel-burning appliances, refer to the
Massachusetts Fuel Gas and Plumbing Codes (248
CMR) for gas and the Massachusetts Fire
Prevention Regulations State Fire Code (527 CMR)
for oil. Applicable specialized codes, rules or
regulations relating to building systems include, but
are not limited to, those identified in 780 CMR
5101.5.1 through 5101.5.7 and those listed in
780 CMR 100.
5101.5.1 Electrical. Massachusetts State
Electrical Code (527 CMR 12.00
 
LEO2854 said:
the words "For hire" aplies to "US"licensed Electricians, not handyman or homeowners.

5101.5 Specialized Codes. In accordance with
M.G.L. c. 143, ? 96, specialized codes, rules or
regulations pertaining to building construction,
reconstruction, alteration, repair or demolition, and
inspection promulgated by, and under the authority
of the various boards which have been authorized by
the general court shall be incorporated into
780 CMR 51.00 through 99.00. Areas regulated by
the specialized codes shall require that all such work
performed is designed, installed and inspected in
accordance with the specialized codes. For
governing regulations addressing the approval,
design, installation and maintenance of
fossil-fuel-burning appliances, refer to the
Massachusetts Fuel Gas and Plumbing Codes (248
CMR) for gas and the Massachusetts Fire
Prevention Regulations State Fire Code (527 CMR)
for oil. Applicable specialized codes, rules or
regulations relating to building systems include, but
are not limited to, those identified in 780 CMR
5101.5.1 through 5101.5.7 and those listed in
780 CMR 100.
5101.5.1 Electrical. Massachusetts State
Electrical Code (527 CMR 12.00
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Leo, I have no idea what the heck you are trying to say or how you think that applies

But per the MA state law only people doing electrical work for hire have to pull permits.

Homeowners doing electrical work for free in their own home are not required to pull permits.

For that matter anyone doing electrical work for free does not have to pull a permit.
 
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