For 2014: Neutrals and Switches

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iwire

iwire

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al hildenbrand said:
Actually, I don't have an opinion on what the CMP intends or wants, with respect to neutrals at a switch box, except for what I understand of what they wrote for us.
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I did not ask you about the new rule for 2011.

I simply asked if you thought the CMP intends, in say the application of 210.12, if a simple switch is an outlet.

But forget I asked:grin:
 
al hildenbrand

al hildenbrand

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480sparky said:
Does this make sense to you:



I believe that Outlet is as opposed to inlet.
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I believe that the core idea in the term "Outlet" is that of current being taken out (outlet) of the Premises Wiring (System), as opposed to the idea of the term "Service Point" which is the point at which current (taken by utilzation equipment) enters (inlet) the Premises Wiring (System).
480sparky said:
How citing the definition of Premise Wiring makes a switch an outlet.
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I've explained this before, and I will gladly, again. The key in that definition, to my perspective, is in the use of "controller" in the last sentence, the sentence that lists the exclusions from the Premises Wiring (System). Wiring internal to appliances, luminaires, motors, and similar equipment are also included in the exclusions.

Wiring internal to controllers. . . the interior of the plain old snap switch fits that definition to a "T", when the snap switch is used as a controller of, say, a luminaire.

Because the current, passing through the switch, current taken by utilization equipment, has to leave the Premises Wiring (System) while inside the switch, that leaving is, to me, exactly an Outlet.
al hildenbrand said:
For the current to be "taken", it has to first be "given".
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480sparky said:
So?
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The Premises Wiring (System), all by itself, has no source and has no utilization equipment, essentially.
 
al hildenbrand

al hildenbrand

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iwire said:
I simply asked if you thought the CMP intends, in say the application of 210.12, if a simple switch is an outlet.
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Asked and answered. I can't guess what the CMP intends.

I, however, believe an outlet is in a switch used as a controller.

:grin:
 
480sparky

480sparky

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Iowegia
al hildenbrand said:
........... The key in that definition, to my perspective, is in the use of "controller" in the last sentence, the sentence that lists the exclusions from the Premises Wiring (System). Wiring internal to appliances, luminaires, motors, and similar equipment are also included in the exclusions.

Wiring internal to controllers. . . the interior of the plain old snap switch fits that definition to a "T", when the snap switch is used as a controller of, say, a luminaire.

Because the current, passing through the switch, current taken by utilization equipment, has to leave the Premises Wiring (System) while inside the switch, that leaving is, to me, exactly an Outlet....
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But why an outlet? Is there a sentence missing in my Codebook that states "That which is not considered premises wiring shall be considered an outlet." Why not call it a radiator, or the Ark of the Covenant, or the left pinky of my next-door neighbor? What leads you to call that specific portion of what is NOT the Premises Wiring System an an outlet? Are the innards of your washing machine an outlet? Your air conditioner compressor? How about all the lamp sockets in all your lights? That definition tells you what parts are and what parts aren't premise wiring system..... not how to label them.
 
roger

roger

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Al, I can't believe we are back here again, what's it been three years or more since the mega thread took place? We even had a poll.

I will ask one question, can you show us where "Switch Outlet" is defined in the NEC?

I can show you many "Outlet" definitions but I can not find one for a "Switch Outlet"

If a switch is an "outlet" because it connects two wires together a wirenut is an "outlet" too. :grin:

Roger
 
peter d

peter d

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New England
roger said:
Al, I can't believe we are back here again, what's it been three years or more since the mega thread took place? We even had a poll.

I will ask one question, can you show us where "Switch Outlet" is defined in the NEC?

I can show you many "Outlet" definitions but I can not find one for a "Switch Outlet"

If a switch is an "outlet" because it connects two wires together a wirenut is an "outlet" too. :grin:

Roger
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Don't feed the beast!

Like I said before....nerds. ;)
 
al hildenbrand

al hildenbrand

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Minnesota
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Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
480sparky said:
But why an outlet?. . . That definition tells you what parts are and what parts aren't premise wiring system..... not how to label them.
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Why? It fits the definition.

A smoke detector is installed at an outlet, even though there isn't a label "smoke detector outlet". -- That's also for Roger. ;)
 
renosteinke

renosteinke

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NE Arkansas
I don't see where the new code change - the running of a neutral if your wiring method is a cable - has any effect on whether a 'switch' is an 'outlet' or not.

For example, if the switch for your bathroom light is outside the bathroom, it is still not required to be AFCI protected (like the house outlets), nor is the bathroom switch -wherever it is located- required to be GFCI protected.

True, theer are some who want to change this (by mandating that GFCI protection be at the panel), but that has nothing to do with the distinction between a 'switch' and an outlet.

Nor do I see the installation of an illuminated switch, a motion-sensing switch, a timer, or any other type of switch control as changing the status of the device from 'switch' to 'outlet.' Sure, power is used - but that's not the purpose of the switch. I guess you can say that the switch may be "A" load, but not "THE" load.
 
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