How much to charge on failed service call?

[stevebea]

No need to talk about what it was, but i spent hours trying to fix lost power to a light switch and couldn't figure it out.

I like the whole 'satisfaction guaranteed' thing, but i still ought to charge something. $100 minimum? Free? one hour? two hours? Half time? Pay him???? I changed about five outlets that broke when i took them out of their boxes. They cost 50 cents a piece.

I feel like an idiot for not stopping and just running a new wire from the panel, but i got carried away trying to find this thing, also got on a wild goose chase when the owner said they had the same problem a year ago and it was fixed by changing an outlet in a bedroom across the house (nearer the panel). Oh well. take another one up the poopie-doo.

I believe there is some pyschology involved here too, and this is speaking from my experience. When one is in the situation where they are troubleshooting what they feel should be a fairly simple problem to fix and the minutes or hours roll by it becomes personal. It gets to a point where you feel like you have so much time invested in troubleshooting the problem that you begin to feel like it would be admitting defeat to stop looking and just pull another circuit or find another way to correct the situation without ever finding the problem.

 

[K8MHZ]

Sounds like there may be a few buds over there already. :grin:

And you think the problem could somehow stem from that? :roll:

 

[ASK_EDDIE]

Anything could be buired in the insulation or walls , splices from years gone by, nothing is cut and dry when trouble shooting. Ever try to troubleshoot a mobile home? Lets see there isnt an attic you can crawl in to see where the wires are going , underneth there is an insulation barrier, you basically cant see anything but whats in the panel and the openings ie switches, receptacles . I hate mobile homes.
Ive yet to have anyone of them that wanted to let me ( nor did I want to) cut out the insulation barrier underneth the trailer.

Ive had a couple i couldnt find the problem and yes i charged the service call and more. I own a top of the line Ampprobe circuit tracer and i find it to be useless in most every application, from MH to residental to commerical. i went to a call for a serperate problem a few weeks ago then they asked about non-working recptacle outside, i spent an hour looking for the problem and then ask if they wanted to pay for more and they declined but i still charged .Not everythind is a 10 minute fix.

 

[Michael15956]

"I own a top of the line Ampprobe circuit tracer and i find it to be useless" Why to you find it useless? I was thinking of buying one.

 

[iwire]

I own a top of the line Ampprobe circuit tracer and i find it to be useless in most every application, from MH to residental to commerical.

Either it is broken or you do not understand how to use it.

 

[roger]

You do know that doctors send a bill even if the patient dies?

If an electrician is hired at an hourly rate to work on a problem he can legally charge for every hour that he is authorized by the customer to work on said problem. That's the whole selling point behind flat rate pricing, the customer knows the cost up-front. If you give a flat rate price and don't fix a problem then you don't get paid but if you repair in 15 minutes you collect full amount.

The difference is doctors are only practicing we are professionals and must fix the problem

40 years I have never had something I could not fix, I may have to call for help, but I/we fix EVERYTHING.
A person built it surely one can figure it out.

I would be ashamed to submit a bill if I ever found myself in that predicament.

I am not quite at 40 years (close) but the same goes here.

Roger

 

[kwired]

Anything could be buired in the insulation or walls , splices from years gone by, nothing is cut and dry when trouble shooting. Ever try to troubleshoot a mobile home? Lets see there isnt an attic you can crawl in to see where the wires are going , underneth there is an insulation barrier, you basically cant see anything but whats in the panel and the openings ie switches, receptacles . I hate mobile homes.
Ive yet to have anyone of them that wanted to let me ( nor did I want to) cut out the insulation barrier underneth the trailer.

Ive had a couple i couldnt find the problem and yes i charged the service call and more. I own a top of the line Ampprobe circuit tracer and i find it to be useless in most every application, from MH to residental to commerical. i went to a call for a serperate problem a few weeks ago then they asked about non-working recptacle outside, i spent an hour looking for the problem and then ask if they wanted to pay for more and they declined but i still charged .Not everythind is a 10 minute fix.

Not everything is a 10 minute fix but after about 1/2 hour or so you should have a pretty good idea of what you may be looking for. If not you need to spend some time with someone that knows troubleshooting, you are not a troubleshooter yet. Did you lose the hot, neutral, both or even the EGC? That information right there narrows down a lot of things. Understanding what may have been common practice at the time of installation helps too.

Some continuity checks will not tell you if there is a buried splice in a wall but will tell you that you either have an open or closed circuit between two points. With the buried splice in the wall scenario it is not likely that you will lose continuity of all conductors in a cable just one is all that is needed to make the load not work anymore. You would still be able to verify other conductors are in working condition and maybe even read high resistance through a bad connection on the bad conductor. A lot can be done with some basic test equipment and some electrical theory knowledge. Finding that you have an open circuit in a run of cable and finding the exact location of the problem are two different things. It is then up to you to determine if findingt he location is worth the time or effort or if it is best to discontinue the non working section of the circuit and bypass it with a new wiring.

Outside receptacle with no power on a mobile home (not sure if that is what you had but you talked about them earlier in the post) is often (on older mobile homes) a tripped GFCI in maybe the bathroom.

The people that can't find any solution to the problem but still expect to be paid are wrong. I promise you the customer will not call you again as they see you as incompetent at what you call your profession. If you conclude that the problem is going to be expensive to fix and they decide not to fix it you still at least look professional - at least until they call someone else and they have it fixed in half an hour with minimal expenses.

 

[growler]

I own a top of the line Ampprobe circuit tracer and i find it to be useless .

Either it is broken or you do not understand how to use it.

I'm going out on a limb here but I think Eddie was thinking usefull and typed useless.

In the past I have found many buried problem with just a fox and hound and that's not even close to a top of the line circuit tracer.

I think you could probably find this problem with a cheap tracer if you are familiar with it's use. It's good to have the best equipment but even knowing how to use a cheaper meter or tracer is better than having an expensive piece ot test equipment and not being familair with it's use and the information that it can provide.

 

[mivey]

I'm going out on a limb here but I think Eddie was thinking usefull and typed useless.

I hope so, and that would make more sense.

In the past I have found many buried problem with just a fox and hound and that's not even close to a top of the line circuit tracer.

That's been my experience. Since I got my better tracer, I hardly ever use my cheap one except for a quick & dirty breaker locate since it is in the case with my meters and handy to grab.

 

[electricguy61]

I have to share my similar experience last week:

Called to a home where the bottom slab floor of a tri-level has no power. Each bedroom was using a space heater, which is always a red flag. I've done dozens of these trouble calls, and have almost always found the problem to be bad splices in a box (crimps/tape or the really bad tap splices). In 35 years in the trade, I can't remember a time I couldn't find/repair a problem.

After 3 1/2 hrs of opening every outlet & switch twice, I concluded it must be a flying splice from a past remodel (in this case, it's actually the hot that is dead). I even dug through their closets looking for hidden outlets. I called the owner (it's a rental), and explained that I felt I needed to re-feed the circuit. With time already spent, I thought the total bill would be @ $600.

I haven't heard from him since, and can't get him to return my calls.

I too have wondered whether I should offer him a reduced rate for the troubleshooting so I don't lose the customer. This was the first time I did work for him, and I was actually called by a general contractor I work for and who does all this owners repair work.

 

[mivey]

...In 35 years in the trade, I can't remember a time I couldn't find/repair a problem...

I haven't heard from him since, and can't get him to return my calls.

And there's the problem. Everything can be fixed but everything won't be. As we like to tell the customer: "the impossible just takes a little longer". In over 30 years I have never found a job that I could not do if the customer was willing to pay.

People with loads of money will pay ridiculous amounts to get what they want. But not everyone is willing to pay thousands for what would normally be a hundred dollar item.

 

[electricguy61]

Things is, I kept thinking: it's got to be a bad crimp splice, it always is. I was trying to avoid tearing up walls to re-feed the circuit (slab floor), but all I did was prolong the agony.

You can still learn after 35 years

 

[sameguy]

I use my no voltage tracer (the on for data /phone use) on dead ckts. Remember to cut in half the problem if you can find out what brkr it is on and work through.
I too have had to eat time, ~1/2 hr. before telling the customer it would be: A) really high, B) The next thing I do and let them tell me. One time after telling them this they said that it was ok, they would call the brother back as he was working on it before it went dead and couldn't fix it! I had asked if any new work or did it work before questions of them; I billed accordingly (high).
I would bill a trip charge and eat the labor past the first 1/2hr. in your situation.

 

[220/221]

No need to talk about what it was, but i spent hours trying to fix lost power to a light switch and couldn't figure it out.

Crikey....Hours??

I'm thinking that after 30/45 minutes of looking in all close by receps and lights, trying to find the source, I am just going to refeed it.

I can't imagine getting myself into a situation like that but, if I don't fix the problem, or at least identify it and give an estimate, I'm not going to be able to charge them anything.

 

[readydave8]

Crikey....Hours??

I'm thinking that after 30/45 minutes of looking in all close by receps and lights, trying to find the source, I am just going to refeed it.

I can't imagine getting myself into a situation like that but, if I don't fix the problem, or at least identify it and give an estimate, I'm not going to be able to charge them anything.

I've spent hours, I keep feeling that I'm going to find it, about the only time I refeed is I'm convinced that the next step is opening walls.

 

[readydave8]

I too have wondered whether I should offer him a reduced rate for the troubleshooting so I don't lose the customer. This was the first time I did work for him, and I was actually called by a general contractor I work for and who does all this owners repair work.

I have done the reduced rate thing at times according to the circumstances, but I don't like to. The money I give up went to the guy that did the bad work, the guy that hired him, maybe even to whoever later bought the property.

 

[dbuckley]

The customer is only really interested in one thing; having the fault fixed. Thats why he called an EC, becuase thats the right person to fix the fault.

If you fail to fix the fault, then it doesn't matter how many hours you've put in, what tools you've rented, you've failed to deliver against the customer's expectation.

If after many hours troubleshooting you decide that you cant find the problem, and so you're going to rerun the circuit, well that fine, and the customer really doesn't care, as long as its fixed, but again the customer shouldn't have to pick up the tab for the hours of work leading to a failure to find the problem.

I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that for any resi fault that stays put (ie not an intermittent fault) then if you're still looking for the cause after half an hour then you've failed. I'm not saying you will have the problem in your hand, for example you may have determined that the fault is somewhere hidden under a wall between two adjacent outlets, but you are confident you know where it is, and if the customer says "yep, cut that wall and fix it" then you wont come out with a red face.

If I was your boss and you called me having failed to diagnose the problem the first thing I'd ask is show me the diagram you've drawn and your list of measurements and observations.

 

[CopperTone]

I always tell customers upfront that sometimes these things can take time and as a result can get expensive. 90% of the time we are able to fix it or identify the problem in the first hour which will cost you X amount. We then can give you a price to fix the problem on top of the first hour charge.

I always grill the customer about what was done before we got there - did they do any other work, has this happened before, did someone else try to fix it before we got there? what were they doing right before the power went out, etc. most of the time the problem lies in the answer to those questions - I then tell the homeowner our procedure of checking the obvious most common problems.
I usually try to come up with a solution such as pulling in new wires while I am troubleshooting. I then discuss with the homeowner their options after the first hour and let them know how much it will be.

Remember - you didn't cause the problem - they called you to fix it - if it costs $1000 to fix it - that isn't your fault - if you went down your check list of things to test and traced out everything - then that is what it took to fix it. if pulling a new feed is what it took - then do so safely - if you are hooking up other wires to your new feed- be sure you are not back feeding the problem.

bottom line - Be upfront and honest with the customer before you do anything - that way it gives them an out if they don't want to pay to fix it. You are the professional electrician but you are not a magician and can't read minds or see through walls. Sometimes it can be a hell job - but that doesn't mean you do it for free - sometimes I have thought to myself - thank god they called me - no one else would have ever found that buried splice. In that case - you did a great job - it just cost them $1000.00 to fix the problem.

 

[G._S._Ohm]

and the minutes or hours roll by it becomes personal.
It gets to a point where you feel like you have so much time invested in troubleshooting the problem that you begin to feel like it would be admitting defeat to stop looking and just pull another circuit or find another way to correct the situation without ever finding the problem.

Sounds like
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost_dilemma
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs

This really does become a slippery slope.

 

[hurk27]

I have to share my similar experience last week:

Called to a home where the bottom slab floor of a tri-level has no power. Each bedroom was using a space heater, which is always a red flag. I've done dozens of these trouble calls, and have almost always found the problem to be bad splices in a box (crimps/tape or the really bad tap splices). In 35 years in the trade, I can't remember a time I couldn't find/repair a problem.

After 3 1/2 hrs of opening every outlet & switch twice, I concluded it must be a flying splice from a past remodel (in this case, it's actually the hot that is dead). I even dug through their closets looking for hidden outlets. I called the owner (it's a rental), and explained that I felt I needed to re-feed the circuit. With time already spent, I thought the total bill would be @ $600.

I haven't heard from him since, and can't get him to return my calls.

I too have wondered whether I should offer him a reduced rate for the troubleshooting so I don't lose the customer. This was the first time I did work for him, and I was actually called by a general contractor I work for and who does all this owners repair work.

Response to the above in red:

Interesting around here when we find space heaters (including those overly priced electric fireplaces), the most common problem is stabbed in the back receptacles, second is loose or corroded receptacle terminals, where the device is used for a splice point, which I don't do anymore as we pig-tail all receptacles now.
I would say for third place is a toss up between bad breaker stab connections, and loose splices in box's, and with box's where the wire is not twisted most likely results a burnt wire nut.