How much to charge on failed service call?

[bullheimer]

No need to talk about what it was, but i spent hours trying to fix lost power to a light switch and couldn't figure it out.

I like the whole 'satisfaction guaranteed' thing, but i still ought to charge something. $100 minimum? Free? one hour? two hours? Half time? Pay him???? I changed about five outlets that broke when i took them out of their boxes. They cost 50 cents a piece.

I feel like an idiot for not stopping and just running a new wire from the panel, but i got carried away trying to find this thing, also got on a wild goose chase when the owner said they had the same problem a year ago and it was fixed by changing an outlet in a bedroom across the house (nearer the panel). Oh well. take another one up the poopie-doo.

 

[jmsbrush]

How can you charge for something that you did not fix?
You are the expert.
There have been a couple of calls that have baffled me in the past. Take some time to get some fresh air and regroup.
Having the correct tools, like a circuit tracer can help with opens, hidden boxes and shorts.
Good troubleshooting comes with time and seeing many different things. Stick to the basics, divide and conquer.
I would not charge someone if I couldn't figure something out. If one of my employee's called me and said he could not figure something out, I would try and help him figure it out. Sometimes having an extra set of eyes on a call can do wonders.

 

[Cow]

I remember something Marc Shunk(MDShunk) posted about this a couple years ago that seemed to make the most sense. If he couldn't find the problem for something that should be reasonably simple and the customer started complaining about the labor, he'd tell them he'd stop the billing clock until he found the problem. Once he found the problem he'd start charging again for the time it took to fix it. If it was something crazy out of the ordinary, handyman wiring etc, or something just plain shoddy, then I'd definitely tell them I'm charging for some of the time it took to find the problem.

I remember one time I had to help another guy out of a jam after he spent a few hours doing the same thing you are. In the process of tracking the circuit down we found all sorts of problems in other devices/circuits/etc, horrible wiring all along the way, so by the time we could actually get to the problem we were trying to fix we had a day or so of labor between the two of us. I bought an Amprobe 2005 after this one....

 

[readydave8]

I remember something Marc Shunk(MDShunk) posted about this a couple years ago that seemed to make the most sense. If he couldn't find the problem for something that should be reasonably simple and the customer started complaining about the labor, he'd tell them he'd stop the billing clock until he found the problem. Once he found the problem he'd start charging again for the time it took to fix it. If it was something crazy out of the ordinary, handyman wiring etc, or something just plain shoddy, then I'd definitely tell them I'm charging for some of the time it took to find the problem.

I remember one time I had to help another guy out of a jam after he spent a few hours doing the same thing you are. In the process of tracking the circuit down we found all sorts of problems in other devices/circuits/etc, horrible wiring all along the way, so by the time we could actually get to the problem we were trying to fix we had a day or so of labor between the two of us. I bought an Amprobe 2005 after this one....

My first thought was that I couldn't possibly charge anything for not being able to fix the problem, however you would want to get paid for the things that you came across and fixed while you were looking for the problem. But the customer won't remember that even if you explain it, he will only remember paying and still having problem.

So I would either schedule another visit, hopefully find the problem and ideally have a good reason for taking so long to find it (unexpected concealed splice, for example, made it hard to troubleshoot). Or absorb the loss and figure out how for it not to happen again.

But it's easy for me to say what to do, I'm sitting at a computer typing, sometimes things are more complicated in real life.

 

[GUNNING]

It happens

It happens

Remember you are the expert. Your decisions are educated. You did replace old broken or outdated receptacles to alleviate and investigate there investment.

Just fix the problem.

If it needs a new feed do not energize anything unknown.

Hidden box, open wire nut, concealed splice, staple, squirrel, rat, lost pet mouse, home owner upgrading there devices.

I start with the outlet that works that is really broken. Trouble shooting is an art and saying I don't know is ok. You are there to fix the problem not taking credit for creating it.

As for billing, you will know what is fair. I have reduced the hourly rate to meet what I would have expected the call to cost. Dropping 20% off the rate is a lot and can save your reputation. Telling the customer you will be back in the morning with a plan, and contemplate what you have done and what your options are works. Communicate with your customer.


Is it fair to me?
Is it fair to them?
Is it fair to all parties?

 

[realolman]

Do you feel as though you are competent? I think if you had fixed the problem, then you would have a better handle on what to charge.

The MDShunk idea is probably pretty fair to everyone involved. You should be competent, but on the other hand, it's not your joint, and you don't know what the heck is there till you find it... unless you're a total dud, you deserve to be paid something for your work.

I can't see how anyone could turn down your offer to work for free... but then you have to be confident enough to know you're gonna fix it eventually... It's hard for me to see how you could just give up.

It seems to me that a customer would feel better about having a "professional" on site and in the process of tracing down what may be a dangerous situation, than the prospect of hiring another, unknown, guy and having to start over, perhaps with similar results. I really liked what Gunning said about you didn't make the problem... you're trying to fix it.

I know some of those "3 way" wiring schemes I saw in another thread would make me scratch my head....

 

[growler]

How can you charge for something that you did not fix?

You do know that doctors send a bill even if the patient dies?

If an electrician is hired at an hourly rate to work on a problem he can legally charge for every hour that he is authorized by the customer to work on said problem. That's the whole selling point behind flat rate pricing, the customer knows the cost up-front. If you give a flat rate price and don't fix a problem then you don't get paid but if you repair in 15 minutes you collect full amount.

 

[brian john]

40 years I have never had something I could not fix, I may have to call for help, but I/we fix EVERYTHING.
A person built it surely one can figure it out.

I would be ashamed to submit a bill if I ever found myself in that predicament.

 

[kwired]

At some point you should be able to come to conclusion that it may be best to replace rather than to continue to try to find a problem.

For an open circuit condition you should be able to trace the majority of the circuit, verify continuity between points where you do have access and determine that there is an open circuit between two different points. Temporarily feeding power to a certain point can help verify some things also. If you determine that there may be a concealed splice that went bad or concealed damaged cable you need to plan how to replace it.
Having proper equipment and knowing how to use it will make this job easier. Knowing how to use it takes experience. Don't know what your experience is but I am sure you are learning something on this one.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I agree with Brian. I would not submit a bill if I couldn't fix it. I wasn't sure the OP meant he didn't solve it although that may be the case. I was thinking he spent too much time before he fixed the problem and should he charge for the wasted time.....Not sure. The title seems to infer he failed but...

 

[satcom]

We would not charge for the call we do not work T&M on residential service or installs all work is a flat rate. A call like he had we charge a fixed fee up front to find the problem then once we find the problem we quote the customer a price for the repair, so if we failed to locate the fault there would be no charge that has not happened to us on the past 40 plus years, but we had our share of tough dog jobs
Jobs with switch missing power varied but a few dogs were a buried box and a loose connection in a bathroom light fixture.

 

[mivey]

40 years I have never had something I could not fix, I may have to call for help, but I/we fix EVERYTHING.
A person built it surely one can figure it out.

I would be ashamed to submit a bill if I ever found myself in that predicament.

I agree with Brian. I would not submit a bill if I couldn't fix it. I wasn't sure the OP meant he didn't solve it although that may be the case. I was thinking he spent too much time before he fixed the problem and should he charge for the wasted time.....Not sure. The title seems to infer he failed but...

I'm with Dennis. I'm not sure if the OP meant he could not fix it or if he just could not find the original problem.

They have been times I could not put my hands on the exact problem because the search would have cost more than an alternative solution (deconstruction being the usual barrier). Sometimes the customer has also decided it was not worth fixing so I have just isolated the problem instead of finding an alternative means to make something work.

I don't fix EVERYTHING because everything is not always worth fixing.

I would bill for my time, at least up to the point where I could reasonably evaluate the cost to continue. There have been times I have done things at no charge just because it was an itch I had to scratch. Other times the customer just could not afford the fix but I felt they were at risk and were the kind of customer I felt like donating my services to.

 

[realolman]

I think where you went in the toilet is NOT fixing it... or proposing a rewire, and letting the customer decide... in which case you should be paid for the time you have in it.


Surely you could have gotten some help if you needed it.... If there was only a good electrical forum somewhere in the internet....

 

[petersonra]

I have been there. I have spent many hours on site trying to find things that have baffled others, sometimes for months. IMO, it takes whatever time it takes unless you agreed to some limitation on the expense.

I once had a baffling situation in my garage that caused the furnace in the garage to work intermittently. The furnace guys came out and could find nothing wrong with it and suggested maybe it was an electrical problem and suggested an electrician.

I was dubious but I was pretty desperate and they were portraying this guy as some kind of genius at finding obscure problems. And he did not work for their company, so i figured there was nothing in it for them (at least not directly). I called the guy. Sure enough he found an intermittent neutral in the garage that was causing the furnace not to work. His minimum service call was $99 IIRC, but after months of me not finding anything and paying the furnace guys more than that to tell me they could not find anything, I was happy it was fixed.

The service call led me to look at the electrical work in the garage a little closer and I ended up repairing a lot of it. Some of it was pretty bad.

There still is no GE at the garage and being as it is on a slab and there is concrete on three sides, the chances of me drilling a couple of holes through the concrete to install rods is pretty slim. I could run a GEC to the opposite wall about 25 feet away, and outside to the flower bed and install a couple rods there, but I am just too lazy and don't see how it would improve my electrical system one iota.

 

[G._S._Ohm]

From what I can tell, the moral of this story so far is:

Some things should be decided ahead of time, some must be decided on the spot. Have a strategy for this second case.

Figure out the customer's level of desperation and how the cust. will perceive what you did or are doing.

First troubleshoot with a repair/replace decision in mind.

Having proper tools changes what is feasible or not. How likely is it that you will ever again use an expensive tool that you bought?

Everything is not always worth fixing so decide ahead of time a point at which you cut losses no matter how promising things suddenly appear to be - otherwise the fix is always around the next corner.

Foresee situations where it is not possible to be fair to all parties and decide on a graceful backup position.

Compare your skill and decisions to this benchmark
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person

 

[bullheimer]

thanks for the many replies.

thanks for the many replies.

anyway. i left because it was seven at night. it is extremely hard to fix the old wiring technique of NO wire nuts, all splices seem to be soldered and taped with very hard to remove tape-wads. not very distinct white and black. fun fun fun. but i have to admit i cant remember last time i saw these type of connections coming loose, if ever.

yes i have given up trying to find the problem. no i do not have and no i am not getting a $1500 circuit tracer.

tempted to just say "no charge" and eat it just to never go back there. under the house i never looked but could be clean, could be a cat box. i don't do cat boxes.

only solution in my book is run a new circuit just to this light switch, which is the only thing in the house not working, also, i noticed a little door to a water cut-off valve one stud bay (2") from my box, so should be easy to put a wire up there.

usually i am out of these in about 20 minutes tops. my last one took five minutes. a wiggle of an outlet or a bang on a wall will usually give it up in seconds flat. i have removed every light on the floor as well. but....

Not looking for advice in fixing this. You guys have kindly answered the question, which is all i wanted.

Pretty much come up with the same thing i think. i am going to tell the guy what i have done and how much he thinks my time is worth. if he wants to pay me something, i will give him the benefit of telling him what i need to do, and then charge him accordingly for the new circuit. however, very very tempting to just PUNT! would be a great time to have a $20-$25/hr employee, haha!

btw there are numerous cables stapled to the surface of the sheet rock in his garage from his surface mounted panel. it is currently being rented to a house full of teens all smoking reefer so owner isnt too worried, in fact hasn't called me about it yet and it's ten thirty. i will call him now. he says he will be selling the joint in summer. he will have to have someone sleeve all those wires in the garage. i would have to call in another bud to go over there and help me anyway. so we will see how it goes. a nightmare, but at least not the usual thing. sure makes you wish you hadda ckt tracer tho.


THANKS ALL, adios.

 

[ptonsparky]

I have taken the guys out with me on certain fault locates to see if we could devise a way to find them in the future. (In pvc conduit with bare cu GC or EG) No charge to the customer. And no we haven't figured out how to do it with any accuracy.

 

[K8MHZ]

i am going to tell the guy what i have done and how much he thinks my time is worth.

That is your best strategy if you are going to abandon ship. As for me it would drive me crazy not knowing what the problem was. I would rather stick with the problem until I solved it and work out a price that agrees with both me and the customer than to ever have someone think I couldn't solve a residential electrical problem.

 

[hurk27]

sure makes you wish you hadda ckt tracer tho.

You got that right.

I have had one now going on about 18 years, the first one I found at a yard sale for $10.00 It was a Greenlee, brand new in box, kit with all the extra connectors and all, does live or dead circuits is a must, what a find, had it for about 8 years and it was stolen off a job site, it was like I lost my eye sight, I had gotten so used to it, it was like I was blind, my boss did finally replace it for me, and it has never been left on a job site again (not even for a lunch break), yes they can be about $800.00+ if you buy one from a suppler, but they can be found much cheaper on the internet, I have seen some good ones go for as little as $100.00 on E-Bay, but once you learn how to use one effectively you will never want to be without one again.
Between it and some other simple tracing tools, I can just about go right to a lost connection every time.
Trust me if your going to be serious about trouble shooting, you need the proper equipment.

I can't always go right to the problem every time but after I do find it, if I'm honest, I do know what it should have taken, and most of the time I will give a break to what it should have been if I was on the ball, with not having the right tools, you are at a very disadvantage, and you would have no idea as to what it should cost to find it if the right tools was used.

By not finding the problem you could have opened the door to a job not completed, which in Indiana would mean no payment is required from the customer until it is.

Also experience is one of the best tools that no tracer can replace, knowing how to identify how a building or home was wired can short cut allot of opening box's, knowing the difference of older spider-ed fed rooms, where you would know to look in the lights for the feeds, or in the case of a bathroom the medicine cabinet or light over sink or if it has signs of remodel then look for a buired splice behind the medicine cabnet, very common area where electricians get messed up when trouble shooting, many of these older homes will have power fed to the light, and most switch's will be dead ended from the light, even the bathroom could have been fed from a hall light, remember allot of switches were added at a later date, because many lights were pull chain, very common for a bathroom to have the switch on the medicine cabinet/light and a wall switch added later.

 

[mivey]

...it is currently being rented to a house full of teens all smoking reefer ... i would have to call in another bud to go over there...

Sounds like there may be a few buds over there already. :grin: