240V 2-P Breaker Tapping options

[skeshesh]

Good day all.

I have a RFI that some of the more hands-on guys may be able to help with. There's an existing meter with a 200A, 240V, 2-Pole circuit breaker (Siemens QJ22B200H). The breaker is feeding an existing 125A lug only panel that serves a few lights and outlets. We're adding another 100A panel for some more lights, small pump and controller for irrigation stuff. The original designer has a note calling for a double lug connector to be used with the 200A breaker to feed the new 100A panel. All installation is outdoors and conductor sizing complies with tap rules.

The question from the contractor is regarding the double connector lug. He claims that he can't find that item. I was under the impression that these are typical mechanical lugs that can be purchased from Burndy, 3M, whathaveyou to allow terminating two conductors - is this not correct? Also it'd be great if anyone has resources regarding that particular breaker, including available options for terminations and where they can be obtained. All comments are much appreciated.

 

[Jraef]

There are no double lug options for QJ frame breakers, he is correct. They are not standard off-the-shelf lugs, even though they probably do come from Ilsco. They are specially designed to fit inside the breaker housing, you cannot use another lug on your own without it being a violation of the UL listing of the breaker, if that's important to you here.

Your only direct breaker mounted option is to change to an FD frame breaker (FXD62B225) and use what are called "Distribution Lugs" as an option, part #TA6FD04 (one per pole). But you would have to check if your meter panel supports mounting an FD frame breaker. If not, you may have to have a separate "splitter block" down stream of the breaker to split the circuit, but then you have to watch the wire bending space issues.

 

[skeshesh]

Thanks for the quick reply Jraef. It is unfortunate that the original designer did not check to confirm this. I'll have to think about the remaining options of either providing a box and a splice kit or put a small subpanel. I think I like the subpanel idea a bit better - seems economical and the install will be clean.

 

[Little Bill]

Good day all.

I have a RFI that some of the more hands-on guys may be able to help with. There's an existing meter with a 200A, 240V, 2-Pole circuit breaker (Siemens QJ22B200H). The breaker is feeding an existing 125A lug only panel that serves a few lights and outlets. We're adding another 100A panel for some more lights, small pump and controller for irrigation stuff. The original designer has a note calling for a double lug connector to be used with the 200A breaker to feed the new 100A panel. All installation is outdoors and conductor sizing complies with tap rules.

The question from the contractor is regarding the double connector lug. He claims that he can't find that item. I was under the impression that these are typical mechanical lugs that can be purchased from Burndy, 3M, whathaveyou to allow terminating two conductors - is this not correct? Also it'd be great if anyone has resources regarding that particular breaker, including available options for terminations and where they can be obtained. All comments are much appreciated.

Are you using the tap rules in your present configuration? I'm not up to speed much on tap rules, but if you aren't, I think you are in violation of 408.36. But I say again, I'm not a tap (or any other) expert.

 

[skeshesh]

Are you using the tap rules in your present configuration? I'm not up to speed much on tap rules, but if you aren't, I think you are in violation of 408.36. But I say again, I'm not a tap (or any other) expert.

Bill, I don't see how it's a violation since the subpanel has a main breaker - could you be a bit more specific? I don't consider myself an expert either

 

[Little Bill]

Bill, I don't see how it's a violation since the subpanel has a main breaker - could you be a bit more specific? I don't consider myself an expert either

If your using the tap rules (correctly) this is a mute point. But if not, and your are feeding a 125A subpanel from a 200A breaker that is a violation of 408.36, which says the panel can't have protection rated greater than it is. You would then need to feed it from a 125A or smaller breaker.

 

[skeshesh]

If your using the tap rules (correctly) this is a mute point. But if not, and your are feeding a 125A subpanel from a 200A breaker that is a violation of 408.36, which says the panel can't have protection rated greater than it is. You would then need to feed it from a 125A or smaller breaker.

Bill, the tap rules per 240.21 have been applied correctly I believe.

408.36: "...a panelboard shall be protected by an overcurrent protective device having a rating not greater than that of the panelboard. This overcurrent protective device shall be located within or at any point on the supply side of the panelboard." - The way I read this is if the panel or subpanel has a main breaker that is not greater than the panel bus rating then the requirement has been satisfied.

 

[kwired]

Bill, the tap rules per 240.21 have been applied correctly I believe.

408.36: "...a panelboard shall be protected by an overcurrent protective device having a rating not greater than that of the panelboard. This overcurrent protective device shall be located within or at any point on the supply side of the panelboard." - The way I read this is if the panel or subpanel has a main breaker that is not greater than the panel bus rating then the requirement has been satisfied.

That will be fine with the panel you are adding, I think he is talking about the existing 125 amp main lug panel.

Might I suggest replacing that existing panel with a 200 amp main lug panel with enough spaces for all the circuits you need to install? I think it would cost less than what you are proposing to do, and it would be properly protected by the 200 amp meter-main.

 

[skeshesh]

That will be fine with the panel you are adding, I think he is talking about the existing 125 amp main lug panel.

Might I suggest replacing that existing panel with a 200 amp main lug panel with enough spaces for all the circuits you need to install? I think it would cost less than what you are proposing to do, and it would be properly protected by the 200 amp meter-main.

I think I was not being clear enough since I wrote this stuff in a hurry. The setup I was thinking of, although I only mentioned to it as "a small subpanel" in my 2nd post in this thread, was to feed a 200A 120/240V MLO panel (something like a SqD QO) from the existing 200A breaker, then have a 100A breaker feed the existing MLO and another 100A breaker feed the new 100A panel we're providing for the pump and controls.

Any approach that makes more sense and/or is more economical is much appreciated. Sometimes there's a product or solution I simply don't think of due to my limited experience so it's great to hear about the different approaches.

 

[cadpoint]

What's the amount in all the numbers, for the total sum on the load... ?

 

[kwired]

I think I was not being clear enough since I wrote this stuff in a hurry. The setup I was proposing in my 2nd post in this thread was to feed a 200A 120/240V MLO panel (a small one something like a SqD QO) from the existing 200A breaker, then have a 100A breaker feed the existing MLO and another 100A breaker feed the new 100A panel we're providing for the pump and controls.

If that is the case I think we both have a similar idea of what to do. If it is all on same structure in close proximity I would get rid of the 100 amp panel unless you need the extra spaces, it would be a neater looking installation.

 

[skeshesh]

If that is the case I think we both have a similar idea of what to do. If it is all on same structure in close proximity I would get rid of the 100 amp panel unless you need the extra spaces, it would be a neater looking installation.

That's what I figured. Unfortunately it is not the same structure. The job site is a park where stormwater basins are being used as sources of irrigation. There is a 120/240V service drop at some shack at one point and the existing panel is installed in a different shack somewhere else (not too close). All the new stuff will be at a third location. Also pretty much everything is outdoor here other than the branch circuits running into a shack or small building for some lights/outlets.

 

[skeshesh]

What's the amount in all the numbers, for the total sum on the load... ?

Don't know the load on the old panel but I just looked and it actually does have a 125A main (at least according to the record drawings). Even assuming that panel is fully loaded, which it should be far from, the new panel's connected load is only about 25A. I don't believe we have an issue as far as not being able to supply the load.

 

[cadpoint]

I like the idea of the 200 Amp panel.

I was thinking a 25 to 35% draw on existing panel just the same your introducing
the long wires to another service. I think I'd come off of a new panel and single circuits out all from that 200 panel.

If possible ...

OK, that's not the Subject!

 

[Little Bill]

Good day all.

I have a RFI that some of the more hands-on guys may be able to help with. There's an existing meter with a 200A, 240V, 2-Pole circuit breaker (Siemens QJ22B200H). The breaker is feeding an existing 125A lug only panel that serves a few lights and outlets. We're adding another 100A panel for some more lights, small pump and controller for irrigation stuff. The original designer has a note calling for a double lug connector to be used with the 200A breaker to feed the new 100A panel. All installation is outdoors and conductor sizing complies with tap rules.

I mentioned the 408.36 violation because of what you wrote in red above. The 200A breaker would be larger than your 125A MLO panel. But if it is different than your OP, then forget this.

That will be fine with the panel you are adding, I think he is talking about the existing 125 amp main lug panel.

Might I suggest replacing that existing panel with a 200 amp main lug panel with enough spaces for all the circuits you need to install? I think it would cost less than what you are proposing to do, and it would be properly protected by the 200 amp meter-main.

I was going to also suggest the new panel be 200A, problem solved.

 

[skeshesh]

I mentioned the 408.36 violation because of what you wrote in red above. The 200A breaker would be larger than your 125A MLO panel. But if it is different than your OP, then forget this.


I was going to also suggest the new panel be 200A, problem solved.

You're right Bill that would be a violation, but my OP was not accurate - my mistake. Yea, I was thinking about that too but then I either have to run branch circuits a long way from where the meter is to the new loads, OR put a disco at the meter, put the new panel near the new loads and re-feed the existing panel which would also be some ways from the new panel.

 

[Little Bill]

You're right Bill that would be a violation, but my OP was not accurate - my mistake. Yea, I was thinking about that too but then I either have to run branch circuits a long way from where the meter is to the new loads, OR put a disco at the meter, put the new panel near the new loads and re-feed the existing panel which would also be some ways from the new panel.

If that's the worst mistake you've made all day you're in fine shape!
I'm sure you will get it all figured out. Good luck!

 

[Jraef]

By the way just in case you didn't realize it, a QJ22B225H breaker is rated 42kAIC, so unless you use Siemens breakers in panelboards that are series rated for use behind that breaker at a lower rating, all of your down stream panels will have to include HIC breakers. Your available fault current may not necessarily be 42kA, but the next size down in the Siemens breakers, the QJH2 series, is rated 22kAIC so if they couldn't use that, it means your AFC was over 22kA but below 42kA. Keep that in mind when selecting down stream components.

 

[skeshesh]

By the way just in case you didn't realize it, a QJ22B225H breaker is rated 42kAIC, so unless you use Siemens breakers in panelboards that are series rated for use behind that breaker at a lower rating, all of your down stream panels will have to include HIC breakers. Your available fault current may not necessarily be 42kA, but the next size down in the Siemens breakers, the QJH2 series, is rated 22kAIC so if they couldn't use that, it means your AFC was over 22kA but below 42kA. Keep that in mind when selecting down stream components.

Actually I did notice that but I didn't want to complicate the thread before investigating further. The record drawing definitely states "DWP available fault current = 10,000 amps" pointing to the meter location. But the call out for the breaker states "42KAIC". In addition the panel schedule states "Circuit Breaker AIC = 10KA". I really can't imagine a situation where a 200A, single phase service to a shack in the middle of a park can produce +22KA available fault - my guess would be less than 10KA...

 

[Jraef]

Actually I did notice that but I didn't want to complicate the thread before investigating further. The record drawing definitely states "DWP available fault current = 10,000 amps" pointing to the meter location. But the call out for the breaker states "42KAIC". In addition the panel schedule states "Circuit Breaker AIC = 10KA". I really can't imagine a situation where a 200A, single phase service to a shack in the middle of a park can produce +22KA available fault - my guess would be less than 10KA...

Good that you already saw that. If it says it, it says it, puts you in the clear.

It's entirely possible that the day they needed the service panel, the only thing available off-the-shelf had the higher rated breaker and that was cheaper than flying out something else. Then they back-filled the documentation to show what was in place. Happens all the time and there is nothing wrong with it.

Good luck.