210.52(B)(2) Wrinkle

[Smart $]

It has nothing to do with a disposal being a small appliance or not. If I put a toaster in my bedroom I cannot extend the kitchen SABC to my bedroom and be compliant.

The point is that SABC receptacles (i.e. outlets) are for plug-connected small appliances. Is there anything that rules out a plug-connected disposal from being a small appliance. Is there any rule that says you cannot plug a disposal into an SABC receptacle?

As for the outlet, what if this receptacle were installed above counter?

What if it were installed in the wall behind the cabinet and hole cut in the cabinet back to access it?

 

[david luchini]

The point is that SABC receptacles (i.e. outlets) are for plug-connected small appliances. Is there anything that rules out a plug-connected disposal from being a small appliance. Is there any rule that says you cannot plug a disposal into an SABC receptacle?

I don't believe there is any rule that says you cannot plug a disposal into an SABC receptacle. There is a rule, however, that you cannot connect the receptacle located below the island counter to the SABC.

 

[Smart $]

... There is a rule, however, that you cannot connect the receptacle located below the island counter to the SABC.

That is not completely true. What is true is that it cannot be mounted below (and inside) and considered as serving the countertop.

 

[Howard Burger]

Memo to George

Memo to George

To: George Stolz
Fm: Some of us forum members
Subj: Update NEC, FAQ, abbreviations

George, could you go to your (locked) 2008 file and add SSU to it so those of us who haven't a clue what you mean by SSU will not have to ask several times in a post for an answer? Thank you.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

That is not completely true. What is true is that it cannot cannot be mounted below (and inside) and considered as serving the countertop.

I don't agree with that. You certainly can have a receptacle below the counter but it cannot be sabc, imo. I see wall and counter locations and in some case within 12" of the top of the counter but not inside the cabinet. Now you can argue that it can be in the wall below the counter and I would say you are stretching the intent of this section

 

[George Stolz]

George, Little Bill & I are curious what is a "SSU" . Thank You John

Sorry - a fused switch.

 

[david luchini]

That is not completely true. What is true is that it cannot be mounted below (and inside) and considered as serving the countertop.

What I said is completely true.

There is a rule, however, that you cannot connect the receptacle located below the island counter to the SABC.

What would you say if someone put in an SSU with a 15A fuse, and supplied a receptacle under the sink with a chunk of 14-2 for a disposal on the load side of those receptacles?

I said "the" receptacle as in the one mentioned in the OP, not "a" receptacle as in any receptacle. "A" receptacle below a countertop would only be considered as serving the countertop if it meets the requirements of 210.52(C)(5), exception (not more than 12" below the countertop, etc.)

 

[George Stolz]

To: George Stolz
Fm: Some of us forum members
Subj: Update NEC, FAQ, abbreviations

George, could you go to your (locked) 2008 file and add SSU to it so those of us who haven't a clue what you mean by SSU will not have to ask several times in a post for an answer? Thank you.

Patience, Job.

There will be a 2011 NEC FAQ, all new, hopefully before the end of the year. If I can't talk Dennis into it I'll do it.

 

[Howard Burger]

Looking forward to it. Thanks,

J

 

[kwired]

I agree with rcarroll...210.52(B)(1) says in a kitchen...the SABCs shall supply all the wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A) and all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration.

210.52(B)(2) says the SABCs shall have no other outlets. The disposal is not one of the outlets specified in 210.52(B)(1) so it cannot be connected to the SABC per 210.52(B)(2) (or its exceptions.)

The only wrinkle I could think of is saying that the 15A fuse creates a "new" branch circuit, so the disposal is not on the SABC. However, I think the 15A fuse falls under "supplementary" overcurrent protection, not branch overcurrent protection.

(Also, if the 15A fuse wasn't "supplementary," by the definition of "feeder" the SABC would then be a feeder. That's a real brain twister.)

I agree. If the disposer outlet is in the sink cabinet like it usually is, it is not a 210.52 (A) or (C) required outlet and therefore can not be part of any SABC. Putting the SSU switch may make the disposer a new branch circuit if you want to call it that, but then the SABC does become a feeder for that circuit, and the disposer outlet is still supplied by the small appliance circuit which is not allowed.

 

[Smart $]

I don't agree with that. You certainly can have a receptacle below the counter but it cannot be sabc, imo. I see wall and counter locations and in some case within 12" of the top of the counter but not inside the cabinet. Now you can argue that it can be in the wall below the counter and I would say you are stretching the intent of this section

What I said is completely true.
...
I said "the" receptacle as in the one mentioned in the OP, not "a" receptacle as in any receptacle. "A" receptacle below a countertop would only be considered as serving the countertop if it meets the requirements of 210.52(C)(5), exception (not more than 12" below the countertop, etc.)

You guys are looking at receptacles on 210.11(C)(1) SABC's as limited to those specified in 210.52. That is is simply not true.

Nowhere in the NEC does it state the receptacles required by 210.52 to be the only receptacles on the SABC circuits. Support for my claim is in 210.52 general statement...

210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets. This section provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets. The receptacles required by this section shall be in addition to any receptacle that is:
....(1) Part of a luminaire or appliance, or
....(2) Controlled by a wall switch in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, or
....(3) Located within cabinets or cupboards, or
....(4) Located more than 1.7 m (51⁄2 ft) above the floor

 

[kwired]

You guys are looking at receptacles on 210.11(C)(1) SABC's as limited to those specified in 210.52. That is is simply not true.

Nowhere in the NEC does it state the receptacles required by 210.52 to be the only receptacles on the SABC circuits. Support for my claim is in 210.52 general statement...

210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets. This section provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets. The receptacles required by this section shall be in addition to any receptacle that is:
....(1) Part of a luminaire or appliance, or
....(2) Controlled by a wall switch in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, or
....(3) Located within cabinets or cupboards, or
....(4) Located more than 1.7 m (51⁄2 ft) above the floor

Doesn't "in addition to" mean the items listed are not 210.52 required outlets. Therefore the disposer outlet is not required by 210.52 because it is in a cabinet. As mentioned before if not a 210.52 (A) or (C) required outlet then it can't be part of SABC.

 

[George Stolz]

Smart, I think you're way off base in your reasoning.

210.52(B)(1) says the SABCs shall serve all walls, floors and fridges. It also makes clear that a receptacle behind a fridge is not serving wall space.
210.52(B)(2) says that the SABCs shall serve none else.
210.52(A)(1) says that outlets within cupboards are not wall space.
210.52(C)(5) says that receptacles rendered not readily accessible by a slew of things are not SABC receptacles, even in an appliance garage.
I'm sure there's an Annex example (and probably text in 220) that a disposal is taken in addition to the SABC demand load as well.

Do you honestly think a disposal can just be straight fed off the SABC? Honest?

 

[Smart $]

Doesn't "in addition to" mean the items listed are not 210.52 required outlets. Therefore the disposer outlet is not required by 210.52 because it is in a cabinet. As mentioned before if not a 210.52 (A) or (C) required outlet then it can't be part of SABC.

Yes the items listed are not the 210.52 required outlets... they are in addition to 210.52 required outlets. If you put a receptacle every 6' on a wall space, every other receptacle is not required by 210.52... but they can still be on the same SABC. In the same perspective, the general statement does not say the items listed cannot be SABC outlets or cannot be on an SABC circuit... they are just not required to be under 210.52 subsections.

 

[Smart $]

Smart, I think you're way off base in your reasoning.

210.52(B)(1) says the SABCs shall serve all walls, floors and fridges. It also makes clear that a receptacle behind a fridge is not serving wall space.

Don't confuse required outlets (i.e. location) with outlets (i.e. purpose) permitted to be on an SABC.

210.52(B)(2) says that the SABCs shall serve none else.

True... but the question is: what can be included and what cannot. What is included, other than the exceptions, are "specified in 210.52(B)(1)"... which says "all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment." 210.52(A)(3) says only floor receptacles within 18" of a wall can be counted as serving wall space... and the only mention of floor receptacles therein. So is a middle-of-the-floor receptacle an "other outlet". If you go solely by 210.52(A) general, you cannot install a floor receptacle at 18" or greater distance from a wall... "In every kitchen, family room, dining room, living room, parlor, library, den, sunroom, bedroom, recreation room, or similar room or area of dwelling units".

The point is is that these are the "required" outlets... and the "in addition to" outlets are not "other outlets".

210.52(A)(1) says that outlets within cupboards are not wall space.

I don't see that...

I'm not saying they are wall space. I'm just saying that 210.52(A)(1) doesn't say that.

210.52(C)(5) says that receptacles rendered not readily accessible by a slew of things are not SABC receptacles, even in an appliance garage.

Quite true... regarding required countertop receptacles.
So a receptacle installed in a cabinet is definitely not a countertop receptacle. I concede :slaphead:



:roll:

I'm sure there's an Annex example (and probably text in 220) that a disposal is taken in addition to the SABC demand load as well.

Well it is a motor-operated appliance. It can be a small apliance and not calculated as a motor load, or vice-versa. I would weigh this according to its size (i.e. HP or equivalent). But if calculated as a motor, I would not be putting it on an SABC, just as if I put it on an SABC I would not calculate it as a motor.

Do you honestly think a disposal can just be straight fed off the SABC? Honest?

Yes... honestly.

Would I? Well now that's a whole different ball game there... and the answer is quite likely next-to-never, given the choice. :angel:

 

[George Stolz]

With your interpretation, 210.52(B)(2) is meaningless. I install a receptacle in the garage and tell an inspector it's for "small appliances...?" :blink:

 

[Smart $]

With your interpretation, 210.52(B)(2) is meaningless. I install a receptacle in the garage and tell an inspector it's for "small appliances...?" :blink:

:rotflmao:


Extremes exist in many ways.... but that's stretching it quite a bit beyond hmy:

But heck, plug in a toaster, set up a card table and a couple of folding chairs... your in business :huh:

 

[George Stolz]

If we're having fun, that's all that counts.

 

[david luchini]

Nowhere in the NEC does it state the receptacles required by 210.52 to be the only receptacles on the SABC circuits. Support for my claim is in 210.52 general statement...

You are reading this completely backwards. The NEC doesn't say that the receptacles required by 210.52 are to be the only receptacles on the SABC circuits. the NEC says the SABC circuits shall only have receptacles required by 210.52(A) and 210.52(C) in kitchens, pantries, breakfast rooms, dining rooms or similar areas. Other outlets required by 210.52, or other outlets in addition to those required by 210.52 or prohibited from being supplied by an SABC by 210.52(B)(2).

True... but the question is: what can be included and what cannot. What is included, other than the exceptions, are "specified in 210.52(B)(1)"... which says "all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment."

Isn't that exactly the point? The receptacle outlet below the sink is not included in the list you give, therefore it is prohibited from being on an SABC by 210.52(B)(2). Also read 210.10(C)(1). There is nothing there about receptacles "in addition to...", only receptacles outlets specified by 210.52(B).

Yes the items listed are not the 210.52 required outlets... they are in addition to 210.52 required outlets. If you put a receptacle every 6' on a wall space, every other receptacle is not required by 210.52... but they can still be on the same SABC.

This is not true. 210.52(A)(1) says receptacles shall be installed so that no point measured horizontally along the floor line in any wall space is not more than 6' from any receptacles outlet. This requires that receptacles be installed not more than 12' apart along any wall, it doesn't say the receptacles shall be installed exactly 12' apart. If you install receptacles 6' apart along a wall, they are all receptacle outlets required by 210.52(A).

In the same perspective, the general statement does not say the items listed cannot be SABC outlets or cannot be on an SABC circuit... they are just not required to be under 210.52 subsections.

The general statement in 210.52 doesn't say that the listed items cannot be be on an SABC circuit, 210.52(B)(2) says the listed items cannot be on an SABC circuit.

 

[charlie b]

If you put a receptacle every 6' on a wall space, every other receptacle is not required by 210.52... but they can still be on the same SABC.

The “every other receptacles” are allowed to be on a SABC, specifically because the requirement in 210.52(A) gives a maximum spacing.

In the same perspective, the general statement does not say the items listed cannot be SABC outlets or cannot be on an SABC circuit... they are just not required to be under 210.52 subsections.

The paragraph that says that only the required receptacles can be on a SABC is 210.52(B)(2). I see this as simple and straight forward: (B)(1) says what goes on a SABC, and (B)(2) says nothing else goes.

If you go solely by 210.52(A) general, you cannot install a floor receptacle at 18" or greater distance from a wall.

Sure you can. It just would not count as one of the required wall receptacles.