My Current Gripe

[petersonra]

Think of this. Just how many circuits were required to be GFCI protected in 1978?


GFCI requirements have taken over 30 years to get to where they are today.

Just out of curiousity, has anyone ever sat downa nd figured out how much money has been spent on GFCIs per life saved? It has to be in the tens of millions of dollars per life, if not more.

 

[cowboyjwc]

GFCI requirements have taken over 30 years to get to where they are today.

If you had the technology in 1978 that you have today, it wouldn't have.

We could sit here all day and talk about the good and the bad in everything.

I love my F-350 because I can haul may whole family and all their stuff in it or any thing else I want. I hate my F-350 because you can't park it anywhere and it takes an acre to turn it around.

I love my wife because she takes care of me. I hate my wife because she can talk.

It is what it is gentlemen. If it weren't for change we would still be threading and running black pipe in the wall and green wire would still used as a hot.

 

[renosteinke]

Green isn't hot anymore? Ach, du lieber!

Getting back on point .... at some point you just have to let 'professional judgement' kick in and do the best you can. It's not that hard- as long as there's no 'disinterested third parties' involved. Good grief, it's awful easy to be a zealot when it's not coming out of your pocket! How often, these past few years, have we heard that bit of illogic that starts with 'if it saves one life ....?'

If Granny is living happily with a 30-amp service and fuses, leave it be. If she's got pennies in the holders and multiple wires crammed under the screws, then you have a problem to address. Insulation flaking off the wires? Gee, maybe the single 60watt (rated) fixture isn't enough- even if the code still says it is!

I've made the argument many times that every time we 'raise the bar' we shut more of the poor out of improved housing. We make the leap from where they are to where we want them to be a bit longer with each code change- making it certain that more won't be able to make the leap, and will remain in depression-era shacks. Personally, I'd consider a 50's bungalow or a 60's tract home to be a vast improvement ... but, no, we want the folks to go straight to a 2011 "green" wonder-hut.

Well outside the scope of this forum -but still exercising a direct effect on our trade- is also the simple fact that the folks living in these older homes often have no say in improvement choices. Their furnace isn't upgraded simply because the landlord owns it, while the tenant pays the fuel bill. Not enough receptacles in the kitchen? Well, you have too much junk. No GFCI in the bathroom? Well, don't do your hair there. Upgrade? Why? I don't live there- my tenants do.

Technically, the issue isn't one of changing the NEC. All of those who have made snippy remarks about 'it's the law' and such ought to be ashamed of yourselves. You, of all people, ought to be able to explain that the issue is one of administration (ICC, rather than NEC), and is an issue directly addressed by your own local codes. I haven't met a government employee yet who doesn't know all the intricacies of the 'system,' and who doesn't regularly tweak the system to get the answers he wants. How else do you think Chicago still hasn't discovered Romex?

On the flip side, we have many examples of government refusing to follow the rules, and ignoring those who 'get involved.' That they can do this is simply scandalous- but it's a fact. (Examples? Ask Gary, In., about CCW's, or Houston, Tx., about traffic cameras). Small wonder the average 'Joe' simply sits back and fumes.

All you creative 'public servants' out there need to get your heads out of the sand. Recognize that we have created barriers, and find ways to remove them. If it's "safety" we are to focus on, we have to recognize that there are different levels of safety, and not insist on 'only the best.'

 

[cowboyjwc]

See this is why no one will ever win this argument.

When contractors are out there doing "car in the driveway pricing" or the famous upselling (OH my God you have an FP panel, it's a good thing you called me, we need to change that fire hazard right away) then it's just doing business.

But if I come by and tell you that you need to change out that FP panel, then it's bureaucatic BS.

 

[cowboyjwc]

See this is why no one will ever win this argument.

When contractors are out there doing "car in the driveway pricing" or the famous upselling (OH my God you have an FP panel, it's a good thing you called me, we need to change that fire hazard right away) then it's just doing business.

But if I come by and tell you that you need to change out that FP panel, then it's bureaucatic BS.

Just depends on what side of the counter you're standing on sometimes.

 

[jumper]

See this is why no one will ever win this argument.

When contractors are out there doing "car in the driveway pricing" or the famous upselling (OH my God you have an FP panel, it's a good thing you called me, we need to change that fire hazard right away) then it's just doing business.

But if I come by and tell you that you need to change out that FP panel, then it's bureaucatic BS.

 

[jmellc]

GFCI's? I shouldn't start on this, but it is a smaller rant. .

I see the need for them in bath, kit counters & outdoors. Garages to a point. I hate that the code did away with garage exceptions for appliances. A lot of GFCI receptacles still tend to trip from appliances & many will trip with a momentary power flicker. I used to swap garage appliances to a std outlet. Now I use a GFCI breaker, as it is less subject to nuisance tripping.

 

[readydave8]

GFCI's? I shouldn't start on this, but it is a smaller rant. .

I see the need for them in bath, kit counters & outdoors. Garages to a point. I hate that the code did away with garage exceptions for appliances. A lot of GFCI receptacles still tend to trip from appliances & many will trip with a momentary power flicker. I used to swap garage appliances to a std outlet. Now I use a GFCI breaker, as it is less subject to nuisance tripping.

I haven't noticed as much nusiance tripping with new generation GFCI's as I had with older ones. But I guess one freezer full of meat would balance out tons of GFCI's that never gave trouble.

 

[renosteinke]

"No one will win ..."

I suppose it a matter of 'who's in charge.'

When a salesman makes a suggestion, the customer is free to accept or decline as he wishes. Look, for example, at a roofing contractor. He's free to offer you everything from a patch job to a lifetime warranty ... and several steps inbetween.

Codes don't allow the electrician the same lattitude. It's either a band-aid or a complete update. Nor, in many cases, is it the customer making the decision, based upon the advice of the electrician. Instead, it's some "outsider" (the inspector) jumping in and making the decision for you. Simple human nature will lead to great efforts being made to keep the "outsider" away from the job.

I believe that there is merit to the idea of being able to do things 'halfway,' I think it's a bad idea to let 'best' become the enemy of 'good enough'- especially when you look at some of the more recent code changes. (Neutral to the switches is one that comes to mind).

Don't try to claim that AHJ's don't have their own agendas, or that their agendas are somehow more 'pure' than those of others. Just about every great evil in history has been driven by 'true believers' who had 'pure' motives. That's exactly why our Founders strove to limit government, rather than the governed.

 

[iwire]

GFCI's? I shouldn't start on this, but it is a smaller rant. .

I see the need for them in bath, kit counters & outdoors. Garages to a point. I hate that the code did away with garage exceptions for appliances. A lot of GFCI receptacles still tend to trip from appliances & many will trip with a momentary power flicker. I used to swap garage appliances to a std outlet. Now I use a GFCI breaker, as it is less subject to nuisance tripping.

No properly working appliance should be tripping a GFCI.

 

[jumper]

I fixed that for you.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Just depends on what side of the counter you're standing on sometimes.

I guess it's great to be on your side

GFCI's? I shouldn't start on this, but it is a smaller rant. .

I see the need for them in bath, kit counters & outdoors. Garages to a point. I hate that the code did away with garage exceptions for appliances. A lot of GFCI receptacles still tend to trip from appliances & many will trip with a momentary power flicker. I used to swap garage appliances to a std outlet. Now I use a GFCI breaker, as it is less subject to nuisance tripping.

Yes I see many GFCI trip in power outages. Many folks are fed up with the new code and the loss of their frozen good around here. I tell you what they really despise is a service call and all you do is reset the GFI hmy:

I haven't noticed as much nusiance tripping with new generation GFCI's as I had with older ones. But I guess one freezer full of meat would balance out tons of GFCI's that never gave trouble.

Well live in a area prone to harsh storms, brown outs and outages. You will then have a differing opinion :happysad:

"No one will win ..."

I suppose it a matter of 'who's in charge.'

When a salesman makes a suggestion, the customer is free to accept or decline as he wishes. Look, for example, at a roofing contractor. He's free to offer you everything from a patch job to a lifetime warranty ... and several steps inbetween.

Codes don't allow the electrician the same lattitude. It's either a band-aid or a complete update. Nor, in many cases, is it the customer making the decision, based upon the advice of the electrician. Instead, it's some "outsider" (the inspector) jumping in and making the decision for you. Simple human nature will lead to great efforts being made to keep the "outsider" away from the job.

I believe that there is merit to the idea of being able to do things 'halfway,' I think it's a bad idea to let 'best' become the enemy of 'good enough'- especially when you look at some of the more recent code changes. (Neutral to the switches is one that comes to mind).

Don't try to claim that AHJ's don't have their own agendas, or that their agendas are somehow more 'pure' than those of others. Just about every great evil in history has been driven by 'true believers' who had 'pure' motives. That's exactly why our Founders strove to limit government, rather than the governed.

In my town we had a code that allowed you to make a situation better but not neccessarily fully code compliant.

No properly working appliance should be tripping a GFCI.

I suppose if it was a modern appliance sure. But there are many old units out there that still have load wiring to ground. How about 2 wire motion sensing switches , smart devices. Put enough on a GFI protected circuit and you will get trips.

 

[readydave8]

I guess it's great to be on your side



Well live in a area prone to harsh storms, brown outs and outages. You will then have a differing opinion :happysad:



:

yeah all we had this summer was a few thunderstorms, high wind that took down trees, and an earthquake

 

[iwire]

Yes I see many GFCI trip in power outages. Many folks are fed up with the new code and the loss of their frozen good around here. I tell you what they really despise is a service call and all you do is reset the GFI hmy:

If there is a power outage ........... they lose their food anyway ......... you are really making a mountain out of a mole hill.

I suppose if it was a modern appliance sure. But there are many old units out there that still have load wiring to ground.

Which means the unit is deadly if the EGC becomes compromised.

Get new crap, don't blame the GFCI for doing exactly what it is supposed to do.

 

[Sierrasparky]

If there is a power outage ........... they lose their food anyway ......... you are really making a mountain out of a mole hill.




Which means the unit is deadly if the EGC becomes compromised.

Get new crap, don't blame the GFCI for doing exactly what it is supposed to do.

So a 1 hour power outage that trips a GFI one should loose a entire freezer! yea that good! A short power outage usually won't be long enough to melt the food.

 

[iwire]

So a 1 hour power outage that trips a GFI one should loose a entire freezer! yea that good!

Yes, that is good, that is exactly what I said.:roll:


Of course, is a dead human better or worse than spoiled food? :?

 

[hurk27]

I say these people should invest into a freezer alarm system, they can be as simple as a temperature monitor system that sounds a loud buzzer to an elaborate system that calls you anywhere in the country, how bad do you want to protect your food!:roll: ok start selling freezer alarms

But when it comes to the installation, I do not want to be sitting in front of a jury trying to explain why I thought that eliminating a GFCI for a freezer to prevent loss of the food was a better idea then saving the life of the child it just killed because of a fault in this freezer!!!:rant:

Just something to think about when doing electrical work.

 

[iwire]

I say these people should invest into a freezer alarm system, they can be as simple as a temperature monitor system that sounds a loud buzzer to an elaborate system that calls you anywhere in the country, how bad do you want to protect your food!:roll: ok start selling freezer alarms

$10.00 from Amazon and from there the sky is the limit. You can get ones that send an email and or text messages out.

http://www.amazon.com/Audio-Visual-Refrigerator-Freezer-Alarm/dp/B000I62FQI

 

[Sierrasparky]

I say these people should invest into a freezer alarm system, they can be as simple as a temperature monitor system that sounds a loud buzzer to an elaborate system that calls you anywhere in the country, how bad do you want to protect your food!:roll: ok start selling freezer alarms

But when it comes to the installation, I do not want to be sitting in front of a jury trying to explain why I thought that eliminating a GFCI for a freezer to prevent loss of the food was a better idea then saving the life of the child it just killed because of a fault in this freezer!!!:rant:

Just something to think about when doing electrical work.

Ok I do and have understood this position. The issue I have is that for many many years it was ok to have a dedicated outlet for these types of devices. So was it ok to hurt someone then, was the NEC panel stupid and uncaring, or was it just a reasonable exception. I realize the freezer could be moved exposing the unprotected outlet. What about the furnace outlet in the garage!

 

[hurk27]

Ok I do and have understood this position. The issue I have is that for many many years it was ok to have a dedicated outlet for these types of devices. So was it ok to hurt someone then, was the NEC panel stupid and uncaring, or was it just a reasonable exception. I realize the freezer could be moved exposing the unprotected outlet. What about the furnace outlet in the garage!

If it is plug and cord connected, I see no exceptions, it also needs GFCI protection just like the outlet for garage door opener:happyyes:

The NEC is an ever evolving code, and will always evolve to include items that may have been over looked or new things as they come up, laws are written (or supposed to be) as the bodies come in (the old joke as to how to get a red light at a intersection), the nice thing with the NEC is that many times this doesn't need to be the case.