- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Without motor output information the reduction in real power means nothing.
"Ampilizer"
- Thread starter Npstewart
- Start date
- Status
Hi
Hi
The actual test can be found online. I just copied a bit off a PDF. I can't keep spoon feeding you skeptics but I want to for the laughs. KVAR NASA TEST. This is my profession, I don't switch and plug. Ive been in some panels that will make most your old hearts skip a beat! You can pick a part my sentences but the only thing you have not done was show me a warm welcome that I expected. lol
Best,
I^2R LSS:lol:
Hi
The actual test can be found online. I just copied a bit off a PDF. I can't keep spoon feeding you skeptics but I want to for the laughs. KVAR NASA TEST. This is my profession, I don't switch and plug. Ive been in some panels that will make most your old hearts skip a beat! You can pick a part my sentences but the only thing you have not done was show me a warm welcome that I expected. lol
Best,
I^2R LSS:lol:
This was the funniest thing. I watched it with the sound off .. hilarious
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LayED...ayer_embedded#!
See the dweeb on the couch with the stupid grin on his face, sitting next to the hot wife
All because that grey box in the basement is fixing his electrical problems
And the red light is ... on. It's working
You sir are a marketing and promotional genius. I watched that vid twice. Very entertaining
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
Yea, I looked. The test itself was not on line, but the stated results were. That is of no value whatsoever. There was no description of the testing method, nor the wiring diagram, nor the test procedure, nor the recorded test measurements. The only thing available was a letter, which there is no reason to accept as being authentic, and a table of numbers, which there is no reason to accept as being accurate. I could not tell, for example, whether any stated value of KW, KVAR, or power factor was a recorded measurement or a calculated value based on recorded measurements. I checked the values by doing a few calculations of my own, and discovered that they are not consistent with each other.
Actually, I found two versions of the same "test results" document. They were identical with the one exception that the second version had, in large red letters, the words "not credible" written across each of the two pages. Given that the cover letter (page one of the ?test report?) has two spelling errors and one grammar error, I am not inclined to believe that this is an actual report by a professional laboratory. Here is a link to the second version, just for the entertainment value:
http://www.nlcpr.com/nasa_KVAR_testing.pdfhttp://www.nlcpr.com/nasa_KVAR_testing.pdf
Oh by the way, I^R LSS (you misspelled "loss"), did I mention that I have a master's degree in electrical engineering? What, may I ask, are your professional credentials?
Hi
Hi
The nlcpr is a business. They are hardly creditable. Thanks for pointing out the mispellings which makes me feel better your education wasn't a total flop! Look into BTU Loss and Hermonic Distortion. I don't think the home unit saves by supplying VAR's but by obsorbing harmonic distortion and reducing the heat that distortion causes from household equipment. I will also like to point out that caps do not create harmonic distortion but when put in lead the harmonics are amplified. The energy saver only puts around 6-8 amps of reactive current into the system. The average optimized PF after install is .95 lag.
Gotta go!
Best,
I^2R LSS
Hi
The nlcpr is a business. They are hardly creditable. Thanks for pointing out the mispellings which makes me feel better your education wasn't a total flop! Look into BTU Loss and Hermonic Distortion. I don't think the home unit saves by supplying VAR's but by obsorbing harmonic distortion and reducing the heat that distortion causes from household equipment. I will also like to point out that caps do not create harmonic distortion but when put in lead the harmonics are amplified. The energy saver only puts around 6-8 amps of reactive current into the system. The average optimized PF after install is .95 lag.
Gotta go!
Best,
I^2R LSS
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
Your company is a business. I infer that you are hardly creditable as well.
My teachers at the University of Notre Dame and the Illinois Institute of Technology thank you. Now please allow me to point out that you misspelled ?harmonic? one out of four attempts, and also misspelled ?misspellings? and ?absorbing.? Were you going to get around to answering my question about your credentials, or my challenge regarding your company?s guarantee?
That?s odd. I would have guessed that the average household PF, without any correction equipment installed, would have been closer to .98 lag. There are not a lot of homes with the 10 horsepower motor that was used in the (alleged) NASA test.
zbang
Senior Member
- Location
- Roughly 5346 miles from Earls Court
That was an incredibly cheap shot and doesn't help your position.
Which unfortunately means that you don't know.
obsorbing should probably absorbing.
Please explain how absorbing "harmonic distortion" causes heating, what it heats, and why that matters. I also don't follow the last part about "causes from household equipment."
Capacitors can certainly create harmonic distortion, and the PF after install rather depends on the PF before install, doesn't it? If the unit doesn't supply VARs (does it?) then it can't affect the VARs drawn from the incoming service.
I still don't see how this device will save me any money.
(Bonus question for someone else- how much capacitance is needed to generate 800VAR? WAG says about 150mF, which would be a large-ish consumer device.)
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
I think the intended meaning was that harmonics are a cause of excessive heating, that a capacitor can smooth out the waveform, thereby reducing harmonics, with the conclusion being that installing the capacitor will reduce heating in household appliances. I say that as an attempt at interpretation, not by way of agreeing or disagreeing with the concept.
More information is needed. The formula is that VARS equals the square of voltage, times two pi, times the frequency, times the value of the capacitance. For a 480 volt, 60 hertz system, you would get 800 VAR from a 9.2 microfarad capacitor.
zbang
Senior Member
- Location
- Roughly 5346 miles from Earls Court
Thanks, that makes sense. (I'm only off by a factor of about 15 :roll:.) It's been a long time since I actually thought about PF correction, other than "that's really bad" or "why change what I don't pay for."
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
Anybody else want some popcorn? Its going to be a good show.
gadfly56
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
wow, a blg man with little fingers (time at 2:08)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=xI6ASfi4pYo
could you even see a box of plugs if they were tapes to your toes
my friend, slow down on the doritos. they are going to your other chin
Hi
Hi
Thank you for the grammar lesson and you struck first with the cheap shot. Caps do not create harmonic distortion and please refer the text where you received that info because that is incorrect. The problem with the NIST paper is the reference from which the information was taken. In the 1960?s absolutely the cap industry was irrelevant unless they were trying to add capacity to a circuit. Household appliances that create harmonic distortion or anything with electronics will in fact cause heat in the system. Heat is relevant because heat and light are watts. By smoothing out the sinusoidal waveform you absorb the harmonic distortion which in turn will increase capacity, lower resistance and losses, saving you money on your electric bill. Zbang I hope you understand what electronics are? But if not here:
? Computers, especially PCs
? Computer Terminals and Work Stations
? Computer Peripherals and Modems
? Word Processors
? Copy Machines
? Facsimile
? Teletype
? Telephone PBX
? Heat Pumps and Air Conditioners
? Adjustable Speed Drives
? Rectifiers
? Fluorescent Lights (including electronic ballasts)
Capacitors are a passive device that cannot and will not create harmonic distortion but they can amplify the 5th and 11th harmonics. The new smart meters monitor harmonic distortion so the power company has a new billing tier. The NASA paper has been around since 1996 I would think if it were made up there would have been some issues by now. The creator from NLCPR looks to have some bad blood with KVAR which usually means an employee disgruntled or a competitor, hence the solar push at the top of the screen. I don?t like KVAR because they are the reason this is a problem. At least I will tell you there if this system is right for you instead of KVAR who will sell to anyone and promise 50% savings off your next electric bill. You cannot! which brings us back to NLCPR page because that was one of the concerns. That is why we are successful with zero complaints from are customers. It would be a pretty huge coincidence if everyone we installed these for are saving money every month on there electric bill which some go back 10, 15 years. I am sure our paths will cross in real life sometime, some sooner than others.
Best,
I^2R LSS :bye:
Hi
Thank you for the grammar lesson and you struck first with the cheap shot. Caps do not create harmonic distortion and please refer the text where you received that info because that is incorrect. The problem with the NIST paper is the reference from which the information was taken. In the 1960?s absolutely the cap industry was irrelevant unless they were trying to add capacity to a circuit. Household appliances that create harmonic distortion or anything with electronics will in fact cause heat in the system. Heat is relevant because heat and light are watts. By smoothing out the sinusoidal waveform you absorb the harmonic distortion which in turn will increase capacity, lower resistance and losses, saving you money on your electric bill. Zbang I hope you understand what electronics are? But if not here:
? Computers, especially PCs
? Computer Terminals and Work Stations
? Computer Peripherals and Modems
? Word Processors
? Copy Machines
? Facsimile
? Teletype
? Telephone PBX
? Heat Pumps and Air Conditioners
? Adjustable Speed Drives
? Rectifiers
? Fluorescent Lights (including electronic ballasts)
Capacitors are a passive device that cannot and will not create harmonic distortion but they can amplify the 5th and 11th harmonics. The new smart meters monitor harmonic distortion so the power company has a new billing tier. The NASA paper has been around since 1996 I would think if it were made up there would have been some issues by now. The creator from NLCPR looks to have some bad blood with KVAR which usually means an employee disgruntled or a competitor, hence the solar push at the top of the screen. I don?t like KVAR because they are the reason this is a problem. At least I will tell you there if this system is right for you instead of KVAR who will sell to anyone and promise 50% savings off your next electric bill. You cannot! which brings us back to NLCPR page because that was one of the concerns. That is why we are successful with zero complaints from are customers. It would be a pretty huge coincidence if everyone we installed these for are saving money every month on there electric bill which some go back 10, 15 years. I am sure our paths will cross in real life sometime, some sooner than others.
Best,
I^2R LSS :bye:
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
This guy doesn't have a single supporter on this Forum or over at the IAEI Forum, yet everyone but him is wrong & dumb. Every bit of documentation provided to him that disproves his product he claims is invalid or out-of-date. Yet he provides nothing at all to substantiate his claims. He claims that organizations like UL, FPL, & NIST can't possibly know as much as he does.
What an honor to have met the smartest man in the whole world. What a joke. This scam artist should be arrested...
What an honor to have met the smartest man in the whole world. What a joke. This scam artist should be arrested...
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Nothing I have found shows the work that is being done by the motor. Without some measurement of the actual work, there is zero meaning to any electrical load information.
mivey
Senior Member
I know you know this but let's not go there as that is not really the issue. Someone could have enough pedigrees to wall-paper their house. What really matters is what is said.
I'll grant that there has been a lot of poking at you with sticks and I can understand your lashing out. I promise you the best way to defend yourself is with facts. On that note, I have seen a lot of name-dropping and such, but no substantial information.
I visited the links from prior posts and was not swayed by the mis-information there. I'll accept that the target audience was for those not familiar with electrical theory. I can assure you that I am, as well as many members here, very familiar with electrical theory.
How about bringing some facts to the plate and give us some real meat to chew on? I would be willing to assume that some prior posts were made in haste and not well thought out due to some of the sharp criticism that has been sent your way. I would be willing to ignore some of the prior posts that did not make much sense if you would be willing to take your time and prepare a post with some good information and theory to support your claims.
At this point, I have seen nothing that would make me think this box you are selling is anything other than smoke and mirrors. Please give me information to help support your company's claims of savings for residential loads. I am always willing to learn but I need real facts. I am not saying the following is the truth, but I am just honestly telling you the perceptions I get from the data so far: Either 1) You have been sold a lot of mis-information by someone you trust and are just repeating what you have been taught, or 2) You do not have a solid grasp on electrical theory and/or supply physics and have come up with this information on your own, or 3) We do not have all the information and are missing something.
Whatever the case may be, let's get some facts on the table and either you can help us or we can help you.
Last edited:
Good morning Sir
I agree with the industry claims that reducing reactive power flow > reduces circulating amps on the wiring > reduces wiring I2R losses. I disagee with claims that wiring I2R losses from excess VAR flow is 10% or more of the bill.
To attempt to validate or illustrate the claims made, here is the calculation backwards:
Known variables from claims or assumed for the excercise:
1: average home electric bill = $150.
2. assumed kwh billing rate = $ .12
3. assumed pfc correction: from .8 to 1.0 , assumption of 20% VAR mitigated by device
4. claimed savings is 10% or $15. monthly
Known constants: 1 month = 720 hours
Claimed savings method: reducing kw = I2R loss by reducing I, current flow from VAR flow
Solve for the unknown variable R, the resistance of the wiring that is causing I2R, conversion of current flow to heat
By dimensional analysis, the customer's electric bill of $150 / month at .12 kwh solves to 1.736 kW average continuous, 7/24. Since this is .8 of kVA. kVA = 2.17 average and KVARs = .434
434 VARs at 240 volts = 1.8 amps flowing, average continouosly. The claim made is this VAR flow can be mitigated (yes) and result in saving 10% on the electric bill (no).
1.8 useless amps are flowing on the customer's wiring. If there were 100% conversion of this flow to heat, the customer would have to pass the 1.8 amps over a suitable resistance to convert this flow to heat. What wiring would be necessary?
434 VARs = I2R, amps = 1.8, solving for R = 133 ohms. From NEC chapter 9, table 9, #12 gauge home wiring has a resistance of 2.0 ohms / thousand feet. To get to 133 ohms, and to convert 434 vars entirely to heat billed as kW, the customer would need 66,000 ft of #12 wire with 1.8 excess amps on it.
If you find such customer, and he has any money left, have him sign something immediately relieving him of his excess capital. Better you get it than FPL
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
My home has only one of the things on this list: a pair of desktop computers. Care to explain to me how the harmonics created in those two items causes so much excess heat that it is costing me more than $15 a month just to pay for that wasted heat?
Some residences will have air conditioners, but they are simple motors, and are not significant sources of harmonics. Some homes have fluorescent lights, and they are minor sources of harmonics. Again I would ask how that small amount of excess heat is worth $15 a month.
OK, I did the calc slightly differently to check again
The claim is made I can save 10% on my electric bill or save $15 off $150 monthly.
At $ .12 / kWH, that backs out to .1736 kw continuously or .72 amps at 240 volt. The claim is made that cutting my VAR flow will cut what I am being billed for, .1736 kw converted to heat by I2R loss in the building wiring.
173.6 watts = I2R. plugging in .72 for amps reveals the circuit resistance is 334 ohms. Per NEC 9, 9 yada yada, 12 gauge wire is 2 ohms per 1k ft. I would need 167,000 ft of #12 cu with .72 amps on it to be billed $15.
The claimed savings looks to be off by, in the range of, three orders of magnitude. My circuit length is in the range of 70 to 170 ft and claimed savings could be in the range of .01 % of my bill.
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