Help With a GFCI Tripping Problem

[Little Bill]

I have an outside GFCI that keeps tripping. Let me try to describe how the circuit(s) are wired.
First there is a home run to the GFCI, then on the load side it runs to a switch box beside the front door for an outside porch light.
The black load side feed connects to a re-identified white of the switch leg, then the black of the switch leg connects to the black of the light.
The load side neutral connects to the light neutral in the switch box.

Also, in the same switch box there is a switch leg for the living room ceiling fan and light.
The switch leg goes to the ceiling box for the fan/light.
In this ceiling box, there is a home run for the fan/light, then there is a feed from there to the kitchen lights.
The black from the H.R. ties to the re-identified white of the sw leg from the box beside the front door and to the black feed to kitchen.
Black from sw leg to fan/light. neutral from H.R. ties to fan/light neutral and neutral for kitchen feed.

Here's what's happening. The GFCI holds and the light works until you turn the circuit on for the fan/light & kitchen.
I don't understand this since the GFCI and porch light are on a separate circuit from the L.R. light/fan & kitchen circuit.
I took the GFCI out and the switches beside the door. I did find a couple of nicked wires and thought that was the problem,
but it wasn't. I didn't have time to take the ceiling fan down to check that box yet, but will Monday.

Can anyone help me understand why this scenerio is tripping the GFCI? Maybe when I'm rested a little I can think about this more,
but right now, I'm stumped.

P.S. This is the same house that I've been trying to straighten out someone else's mess!:rant:

 

[kwired]

There is likely an interconnection between the two circuits somehow. They don't have neutrals tied together or interchanged somehow? Does the offending kitchen light operate when the GFCI is tripped?

 

[Gac66610]

IMO that GFCI circuit seems light, are you sure thats all thats on it? sounds like a neutral wire tied together somewhere in another light or switch, i really dont know just trying to give ideas
but if the feed is at the GFCI, then to light, then fed the white and you're always right to the switch
it was a clear description, understood it just fine even drew a pencil schematic whatever good that did me
that GFCI just seems like a small circuit

:?

 

[Gac66610]

There is likely an interconnection between the two circuits somehow. They don't have neutrals tied together or interchanged somehow? Does the offending kitchen light operate when the GFCI is tripped?

wow i type slow Kwire came answered and left before i could post

 

[Cow]

Why would you have all that stuff on the load side of a GFCI? The first thing I'd do is put it all on the line side, then use individual GFCI receps where needed.

 

[Little Bill]

There is likely an interconnection between the two circuits somehow. They don't have neutrals tied together or interchanged somehow? Does the offending kitchen light operate when the GFCI is tripped?

I failed to mention I'm powereing this from a generator as there is no power from the POCO. The neutral for the GFCI is coming straight from the panel and then from load side to light. The only place the neutral from the GFCI and the light connect are in the switch box. I was only powereing the GFCI and living room circuits at the same time. I don't think I had the kitchen on when trying this. It was late, and I had checked all other circuits in the house and the front porch light was the last one, and of course the problem one. I will check further Monday.

IMO that GFCI circuit seems light, are you sure thats all thats on it? sounds like a neutral wire tied together somewhere in another light or switch, i really dont know just trying to give ideas
but if the feed is at the GFCI, then to light, then fed the white and you're always right to the switch
it was a clear description, understood it just fine even drew a pencil schematic whatever good that did me
that GFCI just seems like a small circuit

:?

It is a small circuit, 1 GFCI recep. and load side to light. I didn't design it, just trying to make it work.

 

[Little Bill]

Why would you have all that stuff on the load side of a GFCI? The first thing I'd do is put it all on the line side, then use individual GFCI receps where needed.

Maybe my description wasn't clear. There is nothing being fed from the GFCI other than the porch light and switch for it.

 

[normbac]

If the porch light is flourescent the ballast can trip the gfi

 

[Little Bill]

If the porch light is flourescent the ballast can trip the gfi

Plain old keyless.

 

[normbac]

The obvious is to replace gfi. If that doesnt work try bulb

 

[hurk27]

Got a dumb question?
Why is the porch light on a GFCI?

 

[hurk27]

This is not making sense?

The black load side feed connects to a re-identified white of the switch leg, then the black of the switch leg connects to the black of the light.
The load side neutral connects to the light neutral in the switch box.

Why does the black connect to a re-identified white? when you have a black going to the light?

To me the load side white and black runs to the switch box, the black lands on the switch and white gets connected to the neutral going to the light box, the black to the light box lands on the other side of the switch.

 

[Little Bill]

This is not making sense?


Why does the black connect to a re-identified white? when you have a black going to the light?

To me the load side white and black runs to the switch box, the black lands on the switch and white gets connected to the neutral going to the light box, the black to the light box lands on the other side of the switch.

You're correct, I have it that way, I just described it wrong.:slaphead:
The re-identified is only the other switch leg for the ceiling fan/light.
I even have it drawn out so I would describe it correctly.
I told you I was tired. That's usually when I quit for the day as I did at the site.

 

[Little Bill]

You're correct, I have it that way, I just described it wrong.:slaphead:
The re-identified is only the other switch leg for the ceiling fan/light.
I even have it drawn out so I would describe it correctly.
I told you I was tired. That's usually when I quit for the day as I did at the site.

Too late to edit, but I have another question.
Would the fact that I'm powering this from a generator have any bearing on the GFCI tripping? The generator says "floating neutral" on it, but I didn't actually check it. I checked other GFCIs in the house but there was no load on them, so I don't know if they hold under load or not.

 

[hillbilly1]

You posted this was on generator and the neutral is floating on the generator, is the service neutral/ground bond in? If not, then there may be a short to ground in the other circuit making the ground "live". Check between the neutral and ground when that circuit is on, and see if it is at 120 volts between the two, if so there is your problem.

 

[hurk27]

Too late to edit, but I have another question.
Would the fact that I'm powering this from a generator have any bearing on the GFCI tripping? The generator says "floating neutral" on it, but I didn't actually check it. I checked other GFCIs in the house but there was no load on them, so I don't know if they hold under load or not.

nope GFCI's do not need a ground or the neutral bonded to ground to function, and if there was a problem with using a generator then we would have problems any time we back a house up with a generator.

if the GFCI trips as soon as you re-set it, then there is a connection from the load side neutral to another neutral or something grounded, a staple hammered in to tight? romex connector tightened to tight? who knows but you need to test the load side neutral and see it you get continuity to ground with the GFCI tripped, if you do remove connections till you find where it is making contact.

 

[hurk27]

Is the GFCI that is tripping "On" the generator?

if so then yes it will trip

 

[Little Bill]

Is the GFCI that is tripping "On" the generator?

if so then yes it will trip

No, it is an outside GFCI receptacle. After a night's sleep and your's and hillbilly's post, I think I might know what the problem is. I won't actually be there until tomorrow to verify, but I think all the EGCs are tied together in the 2-gang box that houses the switch to the porch light and living room fan/light. Since the panel is the main (service) the EGCs and neutrals are bonded. When both the GFCI circuit and the living room circuit are on together, I believe the GFCI may be sensing an imbalance coming through the neutral/EGC bond at the panel from the other circuit.
Does this sound like a possibility?

 

[kwired]

No, it is an outside GFCI receptacle. After a night's sleep and your's and hillbilly's post, I think I might know what the problem is. I won't actually be there until tomorrow to verify, but I think all the EGCs are tied together in the 2-gang box that houses the switch to the porch light and living room fan/light. Since the panel is the main (service) the EGCs and neutrals are bonded. When both the GFCI circuit and the living room circuit are on together, I believe the GFCI may be sensing an imbalance coming through the neutral/EGC bond at the panel from the other circuit.
Does this sound like a possibility?

As long as the GFCI load side neutral has no interconnection to anything but loads supplied by the GFCI load side "hot" that is not the problem. All equipment grounding conductors are supposed to be tied together and have no effect on whether or not the GFCI will do what it is supposed to do.

Remember all the GFCI cares about is whether all current flowing on the "hot" is within 4-6 mA of what is flowing on the "neutral". It does not care what is grounded, it does not care if anything is grounded. Grounding does help make current flow elsewhere if there is an unintentional path made to a grounded object. If more than 4-6 mA of current is flowing someplace outside the "hot" and "neutral" of the GFCI - it trips.

 

[Little Bill]

As long as the GFCI load side neutral has no interconnection to anything but loads supplied by the GFCI load side "hot" that is not the problem. All equipment grounding conductors are supposed to be tied together and have no effect on whether or not the GFCI will do what it is supposed to do.

Remember all the GFCI cares about is whether all current flowing on the "hot" is within 4-6 mA of what is flowing on the "neutral". It does not care what is grounded, it does not care if anything is grounded. Grounding does help make current flow elsewhere if there is an unintentional path made to a grounded object. If more than 4-6 mA of current is flowing someplace outside the "hot" and "neutral" of the GFCI - it trips.

Now you've stolen my joy/hope. I know a GFCI doesn't need a ground to operate, I just thought it might be sensing an imbalance from the other circuit coming through the bonded EGC/neutrals.
I think along with replacing the GFCI, I will feed the light from the line side of the GFCI like it should have been to start with.
However, if there's a problem somewhere in the other circuit, I don't want to leave it unresolved. Back to the drawing board Monday!:rant: