AFCI Situation

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Speshulk

Senior Member
Location
NY
I went to meet a couple today at the house they've recently bought. The service is one much like we've all seen: a collection of about 6 small fuse panels all hooked together, so they'd like an upgrade. There are about 20 single pole circuits.

I'm curious how others are handling this situation. By the time you buy and mark up an arc fault, you're looking at about $50 each. So when I add in this $1000 in breakers, I'm gonna look like a thief.

I'm also faced with the dilemma of having to compete in a market where other contractors are using an inspector that will pass just about anything as long as he gets paid. So when they come in around 50% lower than I do because he's not making them use the arc faults, there's no way I'm gonna get the job, but I refuse to use this inspector just on principal.

Also, even though the odds of having a problem later are slim, I don't want to take the chance of not installing them and then have to explain why I didn't do the job according to NEC in the event they do have a problem.

Thoughts?
 

stevebea

Senior Member
Location
Southeastern PA
I went to meet a couple today at the house they've recently bought. The service is one much like we've all seen: a collection of about 6 small fuse panels all hooked together, so they'd like an upgrade. There are about 20 single pole circuits.

I'm curious how others are handling this situation. By the time you buy and mark up an arc fault, you're looking at about $50 each. So when I add in this $1000 in breakers, I'm gonna look like a thief.

I'm also faced with the dilemma of having to compete in a market where other contractors are using an inspector that will pass just about anything as long as he gets paid. So when they come in around 50% lower than I do because he's not making them use the arc faults, there's no way I'm gonna get the job, but I refuse to use this inspector just on principal.

Also, even though the odds of having a problem later are slim, I don't want to take the chance of not installing them and then have to explain why I didn't do the job according to NEC in the event they do have a problem.

Thoughts?

Its not an NEC requirement on a service upgrade or a panel changeout and the odds are the AHJ wont require it either.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I would check with the local inspector. Most areas do not require afci on a panel change out and the NEC does not require it. I would have no problem installing a new pael and not using afci's if I did not change the circuit in any manner.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
The 2011 NEC has made it clear that it is only if you modify the circuit.

(B) Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications — Dwelling Units. In any of the areas specified in 210.12(A), where branch-circuit wiring is modified, replaced, or extended, the branch circuit shall be protected by one of the following:
(1) A listed combination-type AFCI located at the origin of the branch circuit
(2) A listed outlet branch-circuit type AFCI located at the first receptacle outlet of the existing branch circuit
 
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Speshulk

Senior Member
Location
NY
The 2011 NEC has made it clear that it is only if you modify the circuit.

And what exactly is meant by "extended?" If one of the existing feeds running in the top of the panel isn't long enough to reach a breaker and I add 18" of wire, do I now need an afi?
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
And what exactly is meant by "extended?" If one of the existing feeds running in the top of the panel isn't long enough to reach a breaker and I add 18" of wire, do I now need an afi?
All I can tell you is that there have been official rulings on this issue, Many areas have had conversations with the members on the NEC code making panel and the have expressed their intent.

I wrote a proposal for the 2014 to basically state if no new outlets were installed then the afci was not necessary. They accepted it in principle so well see were it goes from there.
 

Speshulk

Senior Member
Location
NY
All I can tell you is that there have been official rulings on this issue, Many areas have had conversations with the members on the NEC code making panel and the have expressed their intent.

I wrote a proposal for the 2014 to basically state if no new outlets were installed then the afci was not necessary. They accepted it in principle so well see were it goes from there.

I'd be interested to read the rulings that you mention, just so there's some kind of precedent to show my inspector when he questions it. Any place I could find this?
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
The following is from the 2014 ROP


2-115 Log #536 NEC-P02
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
SUBMITTER: Dennis Alwon, Alwon Electric Inc.
RECOMMENDATION:Add new text to read as follows:
Exception: Where extension of the branch circuit does not include any added outlets or devices.
SUBSTANTIATION:Often times when changing a service in an older home the branch circuit conductors do not reach the
new location of the panel. The wire is sometimes just spliced inside the panel to reach the termination points while other
times the circuit may need to be extended a short distance to reach the new location. Since many areas are inspecting
this differently throughout the country this exception would clarify this section and bring uniformity throughout.
PANEL MEETING ACTION: ACCEPT IN PRINCIPLE
Revise the proposed wording to read as follows:
"Exception: AFCI protection shall not be required where the extension of the existing conductors is not more than 1.8
m (6 ft.) and does not include any additional outlets or devices."
The revised wording provides clarity and satisfies the intent of the submitter.
 

Speshulk

Senior Member
Location
NY
Aside from the financial burden like in the situation in my original post, what is the logic for exempting panel changes from the afi requirement?
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Aside from the financial burden like in the situation in my original post, what is the logic for exempting panel changes from the afi requirement?

I think it a financial one to some degree. Why force someone to change everything to today's code. Do you add gfci for the bathrooms and kitchens on a panel upgrade? Do you change the 3 wire range and dryer to a 4 wire setup on a change out? The list can go on...
 

Speshulk

Senior Member
Location
NY
I think it a financial one to some degree. Why force someone to change everything to today's code. Do you add gfci for the bathrooms and kitchens on a panel upgrade? Do you change the 3 wire range and dryer to a 4 wire setup on a change out? The list can go on...

I'm still trying to figure out why afis are required at all. Are the millions of homes that don't have them all in some great peril?
 
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