Outdoor receptacle box

Michael15956 · Jun 27, 2012

Hey, I'm willing to lose this debate, buy you guys got to come up with a better agreement.

Michael15956 · Jun 27, 2012

Michael15956 said:
Hey, I'm willing to lose this debate, buy you guys got to come up with a better agreement.

Sorry, I meant argument not agreement.

Little Bill · Jun 27, 2012

Michael15956 said:
Hey, I'm willing to lose this debate, buy you guys got to come up with a better agreement.

Looks to me like the score is 4 to 0, two outs bottom of the ninth and all your bats are broken!
All we need now is for "the fat lady to sing" and debate lost!:lol:

Michael15956 · Jun 27, 2012

Little Bill said:
Looks to me like the score is 4 to 0, two outs bottom of the ninth and all your bats are broken!
All we need now is for "the fat lady to sing" and debate lost!:lol:

LOL,

yeah, but looks to me like the fat lady has lose her voice! AND, the majority is not always right.

jusme123 · Jun 27, 2012

score is now 5 -0

kwired · Jun 27, 2012

Michael15956 said:
A fitting secured to conduit is part of the conduit and this section does not eliminate fittings. Come on guys, the section requires a threaded connection, that is it!

OK, not a debate of whether or not a PVC fitting is a raceway but something else to consider - two identical installations of threaded hub boxes supported by (2) raceways. One is threaded RMC the other is PVC with cemented on terminal adapter - both same trade size. How much harder do you have to hit the box with RMC before the raceways snap off than you have to hit the box with PVC before the terminal adapters snap off?

How much stronger is threaded RMC compared to using RMC with a compression fitting? Depending on fitting this one may be actually be stronger than threaded pipe. Now how easy will the RMC pull out of the compression fitting compared to if the raceway itself is threaded into the hub?

How many improperly supported boxes have you seen with broken fittings or raceways pulled out of fittings. How many properly installed ones have you seen broken? The properly installed ones will have broken box often instead of broken raceway or fitting if subjected to severe abuse.

Michael15956 · Jun 28, 2012

OK, just for fun here, my debate is not about the strength of the said install. It is about the meaning of Section 314.23(F). Given your described install has more strength, but that is not what we are debating. 314.23(F) list five requirements: an enclosure that is support by a raceway shall: 1. not exceed ba,ba, ba. 2. shall has threaded entries or hubs. 3.two or more conduits 4.threaded wrenchtight. and 5. ba, ba, ba.

So, the enclosure cannot be over a certain size and the enclosure must have threaded entries or a hub, that is identified. Now it has been written here that a PVC fitting is not a conduit, not buying that. Hmm, what is a hub? Maybe a hub might be a fitting.

Once again, I believe that this section really wants a treaded connection as one of the said requirements.

Michael15956 · Jun 28, 2012

Michael15956 said:
LOL, yeah, but looks to me like the fat lady has lose her voice! AND, the majority is not always right.

I meant loss, getting late here in Ohio,

kwired · Jun 28, 2012

Michael15956 said:
OK, just for fun here, my debate is not about the strength of the said install. It is about the meaning of Section 314.23(F). Given your described install has more strength, but that is not what we are debating. 314.23(F) list five requirements: an enclosure that is support by a raceway shall: 1. not exceed ba,ba, ba. 2. shall has threaded entries or hubs. 3.two or more conduits 4.threaded wrenchtight. and 5. ba, ba, ba.

So, the enclosure cannot be over a certain size and the enclosure must have threaded entries or a hub, that is identified. Now it has been written here that a PVC fitting is not a conduit, not buying that. Hmm, what is a hub? Maybe a hub might be a fitting.

Once again, I believe that this section really wants a treaded connection as one of the said requirements.

Well I don't know what the code making panel that made majority of the requirements for this application was thinking about, but the strength and reliability of knowing the thing will not easily be broken or pull apart would be something I would be concerned about if I were a part of the panel. I have seen many compression fittings have raceways pull out of them including supposably cemented PVC fittings, I have also seen probably even more PVC terminal adapters that snap off right at the point of transition from thread to the body that the raceway slips into. Neither is a good choice for this use even if they would be allowed, IMO they are not allowed.

Michael15956 · Jun 28, 2012

kwired said:
Well I don't know what the code making panel that made majority of the requirements for this application was thinking about, but the strength and reliability of knowing the thing will not easily be broken or pull apart would be something I would be concerned about if I were a part of the panel. I have seen many compression fittings have raceways pull out of them including supposably cemented PVC fittings, I have also seen probably even more PVC terminal adapters that snap off right at the point of transition from thread to the body that the raceway slips into. Neither is a good choice for this use even if they would be allowed, IMO they are not allowed.

Hey your entitled to your opinion ref. strength & reliability, but check the OP first post. He ask if the pictured install was NEC compliant, so this tread is not about strength. Until someone can put forth a good argument that PVC Conduit is a violation of the said section, I still standby my opinion.

Little Bill · Jun 28, 2012

Michael15956 said:
OK, just for fun here, my debate is not about the strength of the said install. It is about the meaning of Section 314.23(F). Given your described install has more strength, but that is not what we are debating. 314.23(F) list five requirements: an enclosure that is support by a raceway shall: 1. not exceed ba,ba, ba. 2. shall has threaded entries or hubs. 3.two or more conduits 4.threaded wrenchtight. and 5. ba, ba, ba.

So, the enclosure cannot be over a certain size and the enclosure must have threaded entries or a hub, that is identified. Now it has been written here that a PVC fitting is not a conduit, not buying that. Hmm, what is a hub? Maybe a hub might be a fitting.

Once again, I believe that this section really wants a treaded connection as one of the said requirements.

You're still forgetting/overlooking/don't want to see, the part about PVC not being permitted to support the box. As far as 352.12(B), the phrase "or other equipment not described in 352.10(H)" would cover box.

(B) Support of Luminaires. For the support of luminaires
or other equipment not described in 352.10(H).

Also, you said 352.10(H) didn't say box, but it does say "other equipment". It further says it can't contain any devices. The OP's box has a receptacle and a receptacle is a device.

H) Support of Conduit Bodies. PVC conduit shall be
permitted to support nonmetallic conduit bodies not larger
than the largest trade size of an entering raceway. These
conduit bodies shall not support luminaires or other equipment
and shall not contain devices other than splicing devices
as permitted by 110.14(B) and 314.16(C)(2).

"Fat Lady" just sang the high note.
Game-Set-Match
Debate officially Lost
Good Night!

Edit: actually 352.10(H) is for conduit bodies but the "other equipment" mentioned there would mean the same as "other equipment" mentioned in 352.12(B) I only responded to the 352.10(H) because it was brought up earlier.

Michael15956 · Jun 28, 2012

Until tomorrow, night, night, I'm tired.

Michael15956 · Jun 28, 2012

Little Bill said:
You're still forgetting/overlooking/don't want to see, the part about PVC not being permitted to support the box. As far as 352.12(B), the phrase "or other equipment not described in 352.10(H)" would cover box.

Also, you said 352.10(H) didn't say box, but it does say "other equipment". It further says it can't contain any devices. The OP's box has a receptacle and a receptacle is a device.

"Fat Lady" just sang the high note.
Game-Set-Match
Debate officially Lost
Good Night!

Not just yet here Bill, I have an answer for your post. Real short here, I'm tired, but 352.10(H) deals with conduit bodies not boxes. Check the definition of conduit bodies, especially the last line of the definition. They, conduit bodies are not considered boxes.

iwire · Jun 28, 2012

Michael15956 said:
A fitting secured to conduit is part of the conduit and this section does not eliminate fittings. Come on guys, the section requires a threaded connection, that is it!

No, a fitting is always a fitting, it never magically becomes conduit when attached to one.

Does a conduit strap become a conduit when it touches conduit?

Does the box become a conduit when a conduit is attached to it?

Sorry mike it is you that has failed to prove your point.

Little Bill · Jun 28, 2012

Michael15956 said:
Not just yet here Bill, I have an answer for your post. Real short here, I'm tired, but 352.10(H) deals with conduit bodies not boxes. Check the definition of conduit bodies, especially the last line of the definition. They, conduit bodies are not considered boxes.

You failed to see the edit I made to my post. I only refenced (H) because you brought it up. Sorry you still have no case!:happyno:

Michael15956 · Jun 28, 2012

iwire said:
No, a fitting is always a fitting, it never magically becomes conduit when attached to one.

Does a conduit strap become a conduit when it touches conduit?

Does the box become a conduit when a conduit is attached to it?

Sorry mike it is you that has failed to prove your point.

Morning Bob, I'm here like you to learn the finer points of the NEC. I also believe that the code in a permissive code and unless something is specifically prohibitive it is complainant. So, the section we have been debating does not prohibit a fitting as part of the conduit so I don't have the burden of proof. Also a glued male connector of PVC becomes a permanent connection of the conduit.

Second this section list a fitting as complainant, "a hub." Right there is an indication that a fitting attached to a conduit or box is complainant.

Now, really, really now, don't you think what's important in this part of this section is that the connection is wrenchtight? No one has address this part of the section other then me and it seems like a position is taken because there has been a position previous taken. If true, that is sad.

kwired · Jun 28, 2012

Michael15956 said:
Morning Bob, I'm here like you to learn the finer points of the NEC. I also believe that the code in a permissive code and unless something is specifically prohibitive it is complainant. So, the section we have been debating does not prohibit a fitting as part of the conduit so I don't have the burden of proof. Also a glued male connector of PVC becomes a permanent connection of the conduit.

Second this section list a fitting as complainant, "a hub." Right there is an indication that a fitting attached to a conduit or box is complainant.

Now, really, really now, don't you think what's important in this part of this section is that the connection is wrenchtight? No one has address this part of the section other then me and it seems like a position is taken because there has been a position previous taken. If true, that is sad.

You have pleaded your case several times - no one that has responded has bought into the idea that a fitting becomes part of the raceway even a cemented on PVC fitting.

Fittings become a necessary component of raceway systems but are not raceways themselves, and in the case of RMC, and IMC a termination fitting is not necessarily required you can simply thread the raceway itself to provide a means of termination.

Is a hub a fitting? Yes in the case of a myers hub. Is the hubs of a one piece device box a fitting? No - if anything the entire box is the fitting and not just the threaded opening.

Little Bill · Jun 28, 2012

Michael, you should know that most times you can't just look at one section of the code to get a definitive answer to a question.
You're mixing and matching two sections here that one doesn't go with the other, or one trumps the other.

The one for raceways being allowed to support luminaries, boxes with devices, other equipment and the one for PVC. The code for PVC doesn't allow it to support luminaries, and other equipment (boxes w/devices). It specifically says if it's not mentioned in (H) it's not permitted. It doesn't say when you glue a fitting on it that it is then allowed.
I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand!

Michael15956 · Jun 28, 2012

Little Bill said:
Michael, you should know that most times you can't just look at one section of the code to get a definitive answer to a question.
You're mixing and matching two sections here that one doesn't go with the other, or one trumps the other.

The one for raceways being allowed to support luminaries, boxes with devices, other equipment and the one for PVC. The code for PVC doesn't allow it to support luminaries, and other equipment (boxes w/devices). It specifically says if it's not mentioned in (H) it's not permitted. It doesn't say when you glue a fitting on it that it is then allowed.
I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand!

Sorry Bill, I have only been discussing 314.23(F).

There has been a blanket statement on this tread that "PVC is not allow to support a box." This statement was based on Section 352.10(H). Once again I disagree with the statement.

Now, where in the code can you support your statement you just wrote: "The code for PVC doesn't allow it to support luminaries, and other equipment (boxes w/devices)?

Now for your last line: "I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand!" I can make the same statement about you, but I won't because that would be a personal attack. I though that personal attacks were not allow on this site. Keep it professional Bill.

iwire · Jun 28, 2012

Michael15956 said:
There has been a blanket statement on this tread that "PVC is not allow to support a box." This statement was based on Section 352.10(H). Once again I disagree with the statement.

And it seems all of us disagree with your opinion.

Code words aside it seems odd to me that you think the NEC would allow a box to be supported by PVC conduit.

Here is the 2008 NEC section in discussion

314.23(F) Raceway-Supported Enclosures, with Devices, Luminaires,
or Lampholders. An enclosure that contains a
device(s), other than splicing devices, or supports a luminaire(
s), lampholder, or other equipment and is supported
by entering raceways shall not exceed 1650 cm3 (100 in.3)
in size. It shall have threaded entries or have hubs identified
for the purpose. It shall be supported by two or more conduits
threaded wrenchtight into the enclosure or hubs. Each
conduit shall be secured within 450 mm (18 in.) of the
enclosure.

Please note it specifies conduits, it does not mention fittings.

A Conduit is one thing a fitting is another, that is a fact you have done nothing to prove otherwise with anymore than your personal opinion.

Here is the NEC definition of fitting

Fitting. An accessory such as a locknut, bushing, or other
part of a wiring system that is intended primarily to perform
a mechanical rather than an electrical function.

Here is the UL General directory about fittings.

CONDUIT FITTINGS (DWTT)
USE
This category covers metallic and nonmetallic conduit fittings, such as
couplings, conduit bodies, short radius conduit bodies, expansion fittings,
locknuts and connectors for use in the assembly of nonmetallic and metallic
wiring systems. Also covered are fittings used to provide a transition
between metallic and nonmetallic wiring systems. All fittings are intended
to be installed in accordance with ANSI/NFPA 70, ??National Electrical
Code?? (NEC), and are intended for installation and use in accordance with
the following information and the limitations specified in the appropriate
conduit or tubing category.

Here is the section regarding PVC conduit

RIGID NONMETALLIC SCHEDULE 40 AND
SCHEDULE 80 PVC CONDUIT (DZYR)
USE AND INSTALLATION
This category covers rigid nonmetallic PVC conduit (Schedule 40 and
Schedule 80), including straight conduit and elbows in trade sizes 1/2 to 6
(metric designators 16 to 155) inclusive, intended for installation as rigid
nonmetallic raceway for wire and cable in accordance with Article 352 of
ANSI/NFPA 70, ??National Electrical Code?? (NEC). This conduit is intended
for installation and use in accordance with the following information.

As you can see UL does not consider a fitting 'conduit' or a 'raceway'. It simply does not.

And regardless of how many times you say a fitting becomes a raceway it does not. You are simply wrong in that view.

You have provided nothing but your own opinion about that while we have provided UL and NEC information disputing that.

It is now up to you to coincide or find a source to show a fitting becomes a conduit.

Outdoor receptacle box

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