Wire Color Coding

[ElectricianJeff]

Took a bunch of material in trade for some work I did for a widow last week. Her husband was a EC and I got about a half a pickup full as partial payment for this work. Included was about 1000' of 12/2 with ground nm that was made before they color coded this wire. It has the full size bare ground and I was thinking about using it were I knew it would be cover with drywall, etc.

Just wondering if this would be permissable or would it be a AHJ call?

 

[qcroanoke]

Took a bunch of material in trade for some work I did for a widow last week. Her husband was a EC and I got about a half a pickup full as partial payment for this work. Included was about 1000' of 12/2 with ground nm that was made before they color coded this wire. It has the full size bare ground and I was thinking about using it were I knew it would be cover with drywall, etc.

Just wondering if this would be permissable or would it be a AHJ call?

As long as it has the full size ground it is compliant. Color code was done for Inspectors sake as far as I know.

 

[texie]

Took a bunch of material in trade for some work I did for a widow last week. Her husband was a EC and I got about a half a pickup full as partial payment for this work. Included was about 1000' of 12/2 with ground nm that was made before they color coded this wire. It has the full size bare ground and I was thinking about using it were I knew it would be cover with drywall, etc.

Just wondering if this would be permissable or would it be a AHJ call?

As long as it is not so old that it's rated 75 degree instead of the required 90 degree, I think it should be OK. I think some inspectors might question it if it is not yellow jacketed though. Are you up for an inspector challenge?

 

[GerryB]

Just tell or ask the EI about it when you pull a permit.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Just use a 15 AMP breaker. We inspectors would never know! :slaphead:

 

[norcal]

Is it NM or NM-B? If NM, it's scrap, NM-B is 90 degree C & good to use, maybe I should not say this but white 12/2 NM-B is good "bootleg wire." (No permit.) That decision is up to someone's willingness to take the risk.

 

[Smart $]

Is it NM or NM-B? If NM, it's scrap...

Seldom use NM (or NM-B), but may on rare occasions... so I'm wondering exactly what code prohibits the use of older NM???

 

[fmtjfw]

Seldom use NM (or NM-B), but may on rare occasions... so I'm wondering exactly what code prohibits the use of older NM???

Old NM is 60?C wire insulation, NM-B is 90?C wire insulation. You can't use NM wire in many fixtures because their instructions or labeling require 90?C wire. Perfectly good for home runs not ending in lighting fixtures and for looping through receptacles. You would need to look closely at bundling rules.

 

[Smart $]

Old NM is 60?C wire insulation, NM-B is 90?C wire insulation. You can't use NM wire in many fixtures because their instructions or labeling require 90?C wire. Perfectly good for home runs not ending in lighting fixtures and for looping through receptacles. You would need to look closely at bundling rules.

Okay. So there isn't any direct Code prohibition... only compliance with equipment listing instructions.

Thanks.

 

[norcal]

Okay. So there isn't any direct Code prohibition... only compliance with equipment listing instructions.

Thanks.

See 334.112, NM cable is required to have 90 degree C insulation, that is why I said the old stuff was scrap.

 

[fmtjfw]

I would contend otherwise

I would contend otherwise

See 334.112, NM cable is required to have 90 degree C insulation, that is why I said the old stuff was scrap.

I would not use NM with the diminished ground conductor.

If I have UL-listed NM (not NM-B) cable I contend that I can use it within its listing, namely when I expose it to temperatures at or below 60?C. The actual conductors are TW insulated which still exists in the tables. I'd probably have a good argument with an inspector who said it wasn't up to code.

I probably wouldn't use that old NM with the woven sheath, though, I hate getting the tar all over my hands.

A little pugnacious, i surprise my self

 

[Little Bill]

I would not use NM with the diminished ground conductor.

If I have UL-listed NM (not NM-B) cable I contend that I can use it within its listing, namely when I expose it to temperatures at or below 60?C. The actual conductors are TW insulated which still exists in the tables. I'd probably have a good argument with an inspector who said it wasn't up to code.

I probably wouldn't use that old NM with the woven sheath, though, I hate getting the tar all over my hands.

A little pugnacious, i surprise my self

If by the above in red, (I'm allergic to big words) you mean a smaller EGC than the ungrounded/grounded conductors I would agree.
Table 250.122 would seem to prohibit it's use if you're planning on #12 being protected by a 20A OCPD.

BTW, does anyone know what year the NM-B was put on the market? Or to simplify, the color coded NM with the full size EGC?

 

[fmtjfw]

Okay. So there isn't any direct Code prohibition... only compliance with equipment listing instructions.

Thanks.

110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.
...
(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

Generally terminations for less than 100A are rated for 60?C, so that is the maximum you can use ANY NM conductors. In addition the cable itself (NM and NM-B) is rated for 60?C. The NM-B conductors are rated 90?C which means you must strip the sheath off inside fixtures requiring 90?C conductors and you can never exceed the 60?C tables for ampacity.

 

[fmtjfw]

If by the above in red, (I'm allergic to big words) you mean a smaller EGC than the ungrounded/grounded conductors I would agree.
Table 250.122 would seem to prohibit it's use if you're planning on #12 being protected by a 20A OCPD.

BTW, does anyone know what year the NM-B was put on the market? Or to simplify, the color coded NM with the full size EGC?

I think the sheath colors are just a convention. I believe I have a roll of NM-B 14-3 W/G with a yellow sheath for instance which doesn't match Southwire?'s scheme of white 14; yellow 12; orange 10; black 8 & 6.

I can't find any mention of sheath colors in the UL? White book (either PWVX or Marking and Application Guide Wire and Cable) and I can't afford UL standards 83 or 719.

 

[Little Bill]

I think the sheath colors are just a convention. I believe I have a roll of NM-B 14-3 W/G with a yellow sheath for instance which doesn't match Southwire?'s scheme of white 14; yellow 12; orange 10; black 8 & 6.

I can't find any mention of sheath colors in the UL? White book (either PWVX or Marking and Application Guide Wire and Cable) and I can't afford UL standards 83 or 719.

I believe the color coding came out at the same time as the full size EGC. I just don't know what year that took place.

 

[Smart $]

See 334.112, NM cable is required to have 90 degree C insulation, that is why I said the old stuff was scrap.

A quick web search indicated NM-B was first included in the NEC 1984 edition but did not prohibit the use of NM at that time.

What edition first required the power conductors insulation be rated 90?C, effectively prohibiting the use of NM (not -B)?

I never realized the old NM had a smaller ground (goes to show how much NM wiring I've done). What NEC edition was the equal size ground required for the small stuff?

Can old NM be used for rewire jobs, i.e. where not adding anything, just replacing the wire, and perhaps receptacles?

I recently added three circuits in my house using 12-3, and also "cleaned" up my panel. When I bought the 12-3, I was surprised to see it was a flat cable rather than roundish with twisted conductors. Also, in stripping the conductors it seemed that the conductors were smaller than the old ones in my panel. Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed this???

 

[Little Bill]

A quick web search indicated NM-B was first included in the NEC 1984 edition but did not prohibit the use of NM at that time.

What edition first required the power conductors insulation be rated 90?C, effectively prohibiting the use of NM (not -B)?

I never realized the old NM had a smaller ground (goes to show how much NM wiring I've done). What NEC edition was the equal size ground required for the small stuff?

Can old NM be used for rewire jobs, i.e. where not adding anything, just replacing the wire, and perhaps receptacles?

I recently added three circuits in my house using 12-3, and also "cleaned" up my panel. When I bought the 12-3, I was surprised to see it was a flat cable rather than roundish with twisted conductors. Also, in stripping the conductors it seemed that the conductors were smaller than the old ones in my panel. Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed this???

As i stated in an earlier post, Table 250.122 would prohibit using NM with the smaller sized EGC for #12 if using a 20A OCPD.

Are you talking about stripping the sheathing or the insulation on the conductors? If the former, I do notice they look smaller and probably are due to the thickness of the insulation used now vs then. I've checked the conductor itself with my strippers and a wire guage and they are the same, or at least by sight.
At first glance, the newer conductors look almost like #14 when compared to the older ones.

 

[Smart $]

Are you talking about stripping the sheathing or the insulation on the conductors? If the former, I do notice they look smaller and probably are due to the thickness of the insulation used now vs then. I've checked the conductor itself with my strippers and a wire guage and they are the same, or at least by sight.
At first glance, the newer conductors look almost like #14 when compared to the older ones.

I'm referring the the actual conductor... i.e. the copper. I still have some old and some new sitting around. Guess I'll have to get out the micrometer...

 

[jumper]

I believe the color coding came out at the same time as the full size EGC. I just don't know what year that took place.

Full sized EGCs became a NEC requirement in 1971, color coded NM only started after 2000.

 

[norcal]

Full sized EGCs became a NEC requirement in 1971, color coded NM only started after 2000.

A fire damaged rental I wired in mid 2002 is all white 12 & 14 AWG "Romex" the color coding started a bit later. Off topic a bit, it was spooky when the fire occured because I had rewired it 14 years prior, but it started in the kitchen w/ grease or drugs on the range & the house has been trashed at least 3X since.