For Resi work, do you do kitchen without a "Cabinet Print"?

[kwired]

Did I say that I made cookiecutter kitchens? No, I said I worked for one in college. My shop was a high-end custom shop, where it was not uncommon for my proposals to be a minimum of 6 pages long, and some of them 20 pages. I didn't win my projects because they were cheap. I won them because the designs were unique and tailored to the personality of the homeowner. My homeowner meetings were more interview with them than measurements of the room(s).

In new housing developments, most of the houses are built before a customer is found to buy them. There is no customer approval. The GC and cabinetmaker discuss where the appliances belong, and that is about the extent of it. Those are cookiecutter, and they don't need detailed plans. I wouldn't take on jobs like this because it is boring, and I wanted to have every project unique.

When one of my customers passed-on last year, I was able to go back to the house during the estate sale and take the pictures I wasn't able to take during construction (no digital camera back then). My original proposal was supposed to be only for an expanding dining room table (like this one), but when the customer saw the care and thoroughness of my proposal, she fired the GC's cabinetmaker and hired me to do the entire house (and I was way more expensive). This was only 1 of the 8 phases of the project. It is African Ribbon-striped Mahogany with random box shelves (glass) on the left and adjustable shelves on the right. (Yes, there is built-in cabinet lighting in nearly every cabinet throughout the house, so I did have to work with the electrician on where he needed to make drops for everything. I wired the low-voltage side and supplied the transformers, and he connected them to house power.)

This was still back in the days of 2D CAD, so I had plan-view, Elevation-view, and detail view of all aspects. With all of the offsets, it probably took me several days before I could even generate faceframe views. If I did this today, it would all be done in 3D with SolidWorks.

View attachment 7518

Did I say you made cookie cutter cabinets?? All I was asking was how you expected other trades to know how to install things if you refuse to give them a cabinet plan, and how you expected to sell your cabinets to the customer if you never really give them a plan, and if you give the customer a plan why not the other trades. During bid process I can understand not to give too much details that competitors can save themselves some design steps, but once you have a job you need to get serious on the details with everyone involved. And today with so much design of any aspect done on the computer it is usually no big deal to print extra copies of things.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Did I say you made cookie cutter cabinets?? All I was asking was how you expected other trades to know how to install things if you refuse to give them a cabinet plan, and how you expected to sell your cabinets to the customer if you never really give them a plan, and if you give the customer a plan why not the other trades. During bid process I can understand not to give too much details that competitors can save themselves some design steps, but once you have a job you need to get serious on the details with everyone involved. And today with so much design of any aspect done on the computer it is usually no big deal to print extra copies of things.

Read more carefully. I never suggested that I do this. I said that I was aware of shops that do because with cookiecutter kitchens, there is no need for ever creating full plans.

It is actually no different than what you do as an electrician. When you rope a house, your own plans do not show where you will run wire. They only show where boxes are located. If an HVAC vendor asked you for plans on where you were planning to make runs, you would deny the request because the information does not exist. My comment was simply pointing out that quite possibly the reason why the request is denied is because the information does not exist.

I learned a long time ago to take the opposite approach. I made sure that all other trades knew what my plans were. The second project I ever did after going pro as a cabinetmaker had a 13-foot long raised panel island with a built-in cook top. With my electrical and mechanical background, I knew what it would take to install this high-end cooktop. So I had the whole front of the cabinet removable for access to both trades to do their work. The jackwaggon electrician didn't bother to ask about this, so he took a sledgehammer to the raised panel back of the island in order to give him the access he didn't realize he already had. He blew out the whole center section with a sledge hammer because he was so confident he was right. :rant: Yes, I chewed the heck out of him, but I fixed it for free because I worked for the homeowner and wasn't about to charge them for his mistake. What is so dumbfounding is that someone would have contemplated doing this without at least picking up the phone first. They knew who to call, because they did call just 1-hour later to get it repaired.

What makes this project even more painful is that the remodeling design won an award, but the GC took credit for it. The GC told the client that they could not have this kitchen design for structural reasons. I pulled out the Engineering Card and told them they could. The GC was furious with me for educating the homeowner (a long time doctor of mine), but relented and followed my structural changes to the room(s). 6-months later they submitted it for award and won, even though I had redesigned that entire great room (from 2 previous rooms). The original design was horrible, and the homeowner hated it.

I think this bad attitude by the GC is part of the reason why the EC blew out the cabinets with a sledge hammer. It wasn't typical to run across a cabinetmaker that is also an engineer. It was clearly vindictive.

This is a scanned image from almost 20 years ago, so it is not the best.

 

[kwired]

Read more carefully. I never suggested that I do this. I said that I was aware of shops that do because with cookiecutter kitchens, there is no need for ever creating full plans.

It is actually no different than what you do as an electrician. When you rope a house, your own plans do not show where you will run wire. They only show where boxes are located. If an HVAC vendor asked you for plans on where you were planning to make runs, you would deny the request because the information does not exist. My comment was simply pointing out that quite possibly the reason why the request is denied is because the information does not exist.

I learned a long time ago to take the opposite approach. I made sure that all other trades knew what my plans were. The second project I ever did after going pro as a cabinetmaker had a 13-foot long raised panel island with a built-in cook top. With my electrical and mechanical background, I knew what it would take to install this high-end cooktop. So I had the whole front of the cabinet removable for access to both trades to do their work. The jackwaggon electrician didn't bother to ask about this, so he took a sledgehammer to the raised panel back of the island in order to give him the access he didn't realize he already had. He blew out the whole center section with a sledge hammer because he was so confident he was right. :rant: Yes, I chewed the heck out of him, but I fixed it for free because I worked for the homeowner and wasn't about to charge them for his mistake. What is so dumbfounding is that someone would have contemplated doing this without at least picking up the phone first. They knew who to call, because they did call just 1-hour later to get it repaired.

What makes this project even more painful is that the remodeling design won an award, but the GC took credit for it. The GC told the client that they could not have this kitchen design for structural reasons. I pulled out the Engineering Card and told them they could. The GC was furious with me for educating the homeowner (a long time doctor of mine), but relented and followed my structural changes to the room(s). 6-months later they submitted it for award and won, even though I had redesigned that entire great room (from 2 previous rooms). The original design was horrible, and the homeowner hated it.

I think this bad attitude by the GC is part of the reason why the EC blew out the cabinets with a sledge hammer. It wasn't typical to run across a cabinetmaker that is also an engineer. It was clearly vindictive.

This is a scanned image from almost 20 years ago, so it is not the best.

View attachment 7520

Sorry for any misunderstadings, most custom cabinet makers I have ever run into were very willing to work with other trades and apparently you were the same way. I have run into the most trouble with boxed cabinets (or cookie cutter cabinets). Seems like they give you a pretty decent plan at rough in, then when you come back to finish there have been changes:rant: I guess it is easy to do when all you have to do is order different catalog numbers instead of rebuild something you may have already started on, there is no building until you start to place them with those type.

 

[Rewire]

you can get drawings even from the box stores even a sheet of notebook paper is better than nothing

 

[kwired]

you can get drawings even from the box stores even a sheet of notebook paper is better than nothing

That is not the problem. The problem is they can rearrange things on the computer in seconds and have a new drawing.

Owner needs to decide on a final plan at rough in stage and not make changes later on - without expecting possible additional work from people like electricians, plumbers, maybe HVAC guy. I can understand HO maybe not realizing this. If the guy changing the plans knew anything about construction trades he would remind them that these other changes may be needed. Most guys I have seen that put these drawings together can draw any cabinet layout, some that are even nearly impossible to install as drawn, and have no clue about construction in general.

I remember when building my own house we were checking out cabinets from a big box store - bring in your dimensions and they can design cabinets to fit. I don't remember anymore exactly what the guy was having trouble with but I remember him trying to drag/drop a cabinet onto the plan and tweak it to fit where he was trying to put it - the whole time I was thinking to myself - looks good on the plan, just how does he think I am going to install it that way? We did not buy cabinets at that place.

 

[renosteinke]

Memories ....

You simply cannot do your job without the details. I have three stories, involving two customers, to illustrate the point.

#1: A 'dream' job. I got to design the electric for a new light industrial location. I had but the most minimal information, and 'suggestions' from the plumbing, to imagine what the break room would look like. This was critical, as this was a type of construction that did not allow you to move things once the walls were closed in.

I guessed pretty well, though they did make some major counter changes. I was able to "cheat" a bit - running my wire behind the baseboard - when I absolutely had to add one receptacle.

#2: Commercial location, guy adding bathrooms. Where to put the sink receptacle the customer wanted? Well, Murpy's law applied ... I had to move them both when the customer decided to mirror the entire wall.

#3: Same commercial customer, same sort of job. I press the issue: WHERE to put the receptacle? I push and push, finally get an answer. I have the guy make the mark on the wall. Then his partner comes back and moves it. Later, I hear him catching grief from his partner: "Why do we need to tell the electrician what sort of mirror we're putting up?" I had been deliberately lied to, simply because they felt I did not have the 'need to know' where the mirror was going.

Timing can be everything. For story #3, Fine Homebuilding magazine had just run an article on 'communicating' with the contractor, and how what might seem 'obvious' to you might not be clear at all - and they used the bathroom receptacle as an example!

Never be afraid to bill. I just had the alarm guy move a keypad .... it's his gear, so I let him work on it ... even though I have a truck full of suitable wire. He wasn't at all shy about giving me a $128 invoice.

Never be afraid to push for the information you need. DOCUMENT. Take lots of pictures. They always help. I've used job-site pictures to locate buried boxes and framing members. Once I consulted a video to find some rebar (it had shifted when the guy stood on it to direct the chute).

Finally, never be afraid to fire a customer.

 

[Rewire]

I actually I have gotten the cabinet layout on a napkin

 

[readydave8]

I actually I have gotten the cabinet layout on a napkin

All dimensions shown or did you have to scale some?

 

[kwired]

#2: Commercial location, guy adding bathrooms. Where to put the sink receptacle the customer wanted? Well, Murpy's law applied ... I had to move them both when the customer decided to mirror the entire wall.

#3: Same commercial customer, same sort of job. I press the issue: WHERE to put the receptacle? I push and push, finally get an answer. I have the guy make the mark on the wall. Then his partner comes back and moves it. Later, I hear him catching grief from his partner: "Why do we need to tell the electrician what sort of mirror we're putting up?" I had been deliberately lied to, simply because they felt I did not have the 'need to know' where the mirror was going.

That is just plain uncalled for to think the EC didn't need to know about something that effects where he is to place equipment:dunce:.

I also have to ask, why does everyone think receptacles are so important in commercial restrooms? If there were a shower in the restroom - maybe they make sense, but in stores, restaurants, public venues, I can't ever recall seeing one being used for anything by the general user of the space. Maybe a receptacle for floor cleaning equipment is necessary but it certainly would not have to be next to the basin(s).

Finally, never be afraid to fire a customer.

Good advice.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I won't even plan check it without a cabinet layout. I sure wouldn't install without one.

 

[cowboyjwc]

it's funny.... people will spend $77 sq ft on granite, and not redo the
wiring..... i did a service call on a house in huntington harbor, and
there was over $50k in the cabinets alone... and behind the granite backsplash,
1 1/2" deep in the wall, was a thirty year old, twenty five cent plastic box,
broken, full of wires, that a gfci won't fit into.

"i need that fixed", the homeowner says.... 'cause it had come loose in
the wall, and you couldn't put the device in it.

really? do you now? isn't that nice.

most homeowners plan like real estate agents. all bling, and no infrastructure.

if you have a chance to explain the value of doing it right, most folks
really want to do it right, they just don't know how. so a lot of what
we provide in a professional capacity is experience at doing it right.

information and education is foreplay for the change order.

right near that house in the harbor is a private dock.... and there
is a 75' or so yacht with a dingy on the back with a winch to raise
and lower it....

the name of the dingy: original contract
the name of the yacht: change order

That's funny, because I was having almost the same conversation with a local builder yesterday when he asked me how building and safety could help local businesses. I said they could help them selves by hiring quality people, starting with the designers, then the contractors. Instead of scrimping there they should spend their money there and save it on the gold plated fixtures in the bath rooms.:happyyes:

 

[kwired]

I won't even plan check it without a cabinet layout. I sure wouldn't install without one.

Not all of are lucky enough to have a plan check phase - especially for single family dwellings. Any electrical plans I ever have on SFD's is what I penciled in myself on a very basic floor plan, and this usually only covers the things the customer cares about the most - lighting layouts, maybe critical switch and receptacle locations but never includes every single switch or receptacle

Inspectors here do not make sure things were installed according to plans, they make sure they are installed according to NEC, so a plan review may be a way of pre-approving some things or even catching code issues that may have been overlooked or forgotten, but that would be about all it is, the installation still needs to meet code no matter what was on the plans.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Not all of are lucky enough to have a plan check phase - especially for single family dwellings. Any electrical plans I ever have on SFD's is what I penciled in myself on a very basic floor plan, and this usually only covers the things the customer cares about the most - lighting layouts, maybe critical switch and receptacle locations but never includes every single switch or receptacle

Inspectors here do not make sure things were installed according to plans, they make sure they are installed according to NEC, so a plan review may be a way of pre-approving some things or even catching code issues that may have been overlooked or forgotten, but that would be about all it is, the installation still needs to meet code no matter what was on the plans.

And that's why we do it. We also have regs here in CA that you don't have in the rest of the country. So when I'm done, contractors should never be able to use the excuse, "it wasn't on the plans".

 

[kwired]

And that's why we do it. We also have regs here in CA that you don't have in the rest of the country. So when I'm done, contractors should never be able to use the excuse, "it wasn't on the plans".

And owner can still say "that is not what I wanted". And contractor or inspectors says "codes will not let you have what you wanted, you need to settle for XYZ".

If owner changes their mind on something no matter how minor it may seem, does it hold up most of productivity until the new plans get approved by the AHJ - whether it is electrical, or other trade items being changed?

There is a need for regulations, but too many rules just ties everyone's hands behind their backs. It is tough decision to know where to draw the line sometimes also.

 

[fridaymean]

Have the GC approve the lay-out in writing on an approval form before you call for rough inspection. (as well as note on the rough invoice that payment is acceptance of work)

 

[cowboyjwc]

And owner can still say "that is not what I wanted". And contractor or inspectors says "codes will not let you have what you wanted, you need to settle for XYZ".

If owner changes their mind on something no matter how minor it may seem, does it hold up most of productivity until the new plans get approved by the AHJ - whether it is electrical, or other trade items being changed?

There is a need for regulations, but too many rules just ties everyone's hands behind their backs. It is tough decision to know where to draw the line sometimes also.

Depends on what it is. Once had a guy put in an eight foot window that wasn't on the plans and it went all the way down to the counter top. contractor kept telling me how he couldn't get a receptacle on either side of the sink and I kept telling him how he could. He kept telling me that's not what the owner want's. I finally told him not to get "can't" and "won't" mixed up, you can and you will. Your problems are not my problems. You know the code so make it work.

 

[kwired]

Depends on what it is. Once had a guy put in an eight foot window that wasn't on the plans and it went all the way down to the counter top. contractor kept telling me how he couldn't get a receptacle on either side of the sink and I kept telling him how he could. He kept telling me that's not what the owner want's. I finally told him not to get "can't" and "won't" mixed up, you can and you will. Your problems are not my problems. You know the code so make it work.

Sounds like the kind of problem I would typically run into, but you said this would be addressed at plan review, now that they made a change the plans need reviewed again don't they? Otherwise what was the real purpose of the first plan review. Changes are made on most projects I have ever been involved with. And yes there are ways to deal with the needed counter receptacles in your example. One way that may not have come up but would work is pendants:happyyes:

 

[cowboyjwc]

Sounds like the kind of problem I would typically run into, but you said this would be addressed at plan review, now that they made a change the plans need reviewed again don't they? Otherwise what was the real purpose of the first plan review. Changes are made on most projects I have ever been involved with. And yes there are ways to deal with the needed counter receptacles in your example. One way that may not have come up but would work is pendants:happyyes:

Well if you're smart you'll just remind them that changing the plans after they have been approved is a violation too. And yes it goes back to plan check. If you designed for a 6' window that's what our engineer checked to, now you have an 8' window we'll have to recheck it.

Here's my real personal take on plans being changed after I've approved them. I'm probably the last person to see those plans. There was the owner, the designer, the contractor. Is this what you want? Yes that's what I want. Can you build this? Yes I can build this. Everyone happy? OK let's submit to the building department.

 

[kwired]

Well if you're smart you'll just remind them that changing the plans after they have been approved is a violation too. And yes it goes back to plan check. If you designed for a 6' window that's what our engineer checked to, now you have an 8' window we'll have to recheck it.

Here's my real personal take on plans being changed after I've approved them. I'm probably the last person to see those plans. There was the owner, the designer, the contractor. Is this what you want? Yes that's what I want. Can you build this? Yes I can build this. Everyone happy? OK let's submit to the building department.

But if they draw a picture of the changes on back of a big enough check they can have whatever they want:lol:

 

[cowboyjwc]

But if they draw a picture of the changes on back of a big enough check they can have whatever they want:lol:

Only if I'm doing the work. :angel: