314.29 says that a junction box has to be "accessible without removing any part of the building", does that include insulation? if I know the builders are going to fill an attic to a certain level with insulation, should I install any required junctions boxes above that level?
Does article 314.29 mean I can't cover junction boxes with insulation?
- Thread starter Johnny123
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north star
Senior Member
- Location
- inside Area 51
( . . . . )
johnny123,
1st, ...Welcome to The Mike Holt Forum!
2nd, ...no, you do not have to expose the junctions boxes!
See the definition of accessible ( as applied to wiring methods )
in Article 100 - Definitions, `08 NEC.
( . . . . )
johnny123,
1st, ...Welcome to The Mike Holt Forum!
2nd, ...no, you do not have to expose the junctions boxes!
See the definition of accessible ( as applied to wiring methods )
in Article 100 - Definitions, `08 NEC.
( . . . . )
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
To some - maybe, but to most it is easily moved and put back into place.
I prefer to place junction boxes above insulation just to help make it easier to find them. I have come up with methods to identify where buried boxes are located a few times before.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
I agree that the insulation is not an issue however, IMO that is a bad place to install a jb as it makes it difficult to find. I have seen jb's under 10 inches of blown in insulation--- yuk
north star
Senior Member
- Location
- inside Area 51
< = = >
johnny123,
I did not find a definition in the IRC, however, ...in lieu of that,
I turned to the IBC.......See Section 805.2 - Definitions [ `06
IBC ] - INTERIOR WALL AND CEILING FINISH: "The
exposed interior surfaces of buildings, including but not
limited to: fixed or movable walls and partitions; toilet
room privacy partitions; columns; ceilings; and interior
wainscoting, paneling or other finish applied structurally or
for decoration, acoustical correction, surface insulation,
structural fire resistance or similar purposes, but not
including trim."
IMO, ...loose fill; or even roll type, thermal insulation is
not a finish material!.......If it were sprayed on to the
framing elements, then yes.
< = = >
johnny123,
I did not find a definition in the IRC, however, ...in lieu of that,
I turned to the IBC.......See Section 805.2 - Definitions [ `06
IBC ] - INTERIOR WALL AND CEILING FINISH: "The
exposed interior surfaces of buildings, including but not
limited to: fixed or movable walls and partitions; toilet
room privacy partitions; columns; ceilings; and interior
wainscoting, paneling or other finish applied structurally or
for decoration, acoustical correction, surface insulation,
structural fire resistance or similar purposes, but not
including trim."
IMO, ...loose fill; or even roll type, thermal insulation is
not a finish material!.......If it were sprayed on to the
framing elements, then yes.
< = = >
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
So the insulation is not a part of the building????
- Location
- Massachusetts
It is not part of the buildings finish IMO.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
I agree not part of the building finish. But the code section said "any part of the building" not "any part of the building finish". How are we to interpret that? Clearly it does not apply to furniture, etc., and insulation inside a wall is not an issue because you would have to remove the finish to get at it and the j-box anyway. Batt insulation laid in a continuous layer over the j-box sounds bad too, but loose fill? Maybe.
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
Got it. You do have to be able to actually access it without removing any part of the building, it just has to be accessible.
You must not have to remove any part of the building to get down to where there is no finish is in the way.
Convoluted, but makes sense.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
It is my opinion that the wording in 314 supersedes that of the definition of accessible. The insulation is part of the building and must be removed to access the box. That gets a red tag from me.
I see it much like the condition in the exception to 314.29 for underground boxes, but without the exception to permit the box to be covered with insulation.
I see it much like the condition in the exception to 314.29 for underground boxes, but without the exception to permit the box to be covered with insulation.
I consider something "Part of the building" only if it it fastened to it somehow.
I dont consider blown in insulation or rolled in insulation that's not stapled down part of a builiding since its
not attached, and can easily be moved out of the way,no more than I would consider my Christmas Stuff
I have stored in my attic as part of the building.
(Do you not get to keep those if you sell your house?)
I would however question accessiblity if rolled in insulation was installed over a jbox and stapled down.
but that's just me.
I dont consider blown in insulation or rolled in insulation that's not stapled down part of a builiding since its
not attached, and can easily be moved out of the way,no more than I would consider my Christmas Stuff
I have stored in my attic as part of the building.
(Do you not get to keep those if you sell your house?)
I would however question accessiblity if rolled in insulation was installed over a jbox and stapled down.
but that's just me.
- Location
- Massachusetts
If you say insulation is 'part of a building' I have to conclude so is a suspended ceiling tile or an access panel.
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
I have no issue with boxes buried under something like blown-in insulation. I might have a problem if the insulation is sprayed foam- and definitely object to placing boxes under rigid foam panels.
"Finish" can be a tricky matter. I believe the code means something like a sheet of drywall, and not simply a coat of paint!
"Finish" can be a tricky matter. I believe the code means something like a sheet of drywall, and not simply a coat of paint!
It is OK to install Jboxes in the attic that will be covered with insulation. but it is a really bad practice and not a good design.
In the past when I had to remove parts of K&T wiring and install J boxes, right by the jboxes I installed a 36" high 1x2 with the tip painted bright orange. So, if the attic gets insulated they (next electrician) will see the orange tip and know where the jboxes are under the insulation.
In the past when I had to remove parts of K&T wiring and install J boxes, right by the jboxes I installed a 36" high 1x2 with the tip painted bright orange. So, if the attic gets insulated they (next electrician) will see the orange tip and know where the jboxes are under the insulation.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
If those items are not part of the building, what are they?
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I also agree, and was going to mention something similar...then came:
They are movable just like loose fill insulation is, to be able to access something behind them, and can be easily put back into place when finished with the task.
Gregg Harris
Senior Member
- Location
- Virginia
- Occupation
- Electrical,HVAC, Technical Trainer
Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.
If you remove the insulation, a ceiling tile or access panel you are "exsposing" it without damage to the structure "this would be the framing" or the finish which could be a number of things such as sheet rock panelling, ceramic tile etc.
314.29 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, and Handhole Enclosures to Be Accessible. Boxes, conduit bodies, and hand-hole enclosures shall be installed so that the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible without removing any part of the building or, in underground circuits, without excavating sidewalks, paving, earth, or other substance that is to be used to establish the finished grade.
Exception: Listed boxes and hand-whole enclosures shall be permitted where covered by gravel, light aggregate, or non-cohesive granulated soil if their location is effectively identified and accessible, for excavation.
This exception would equate to the same action as removing the insulation.
If you remove the insulation, a ceiling tile or access panel you are "exsposing" it without damage to the structure "this would be the framing" or the finish which could be a number of things such as sheet rock panelling, ceramic tile etc.
314.29 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, and Handhole Enclosures to Be Accessible. Boxes, conduit bodies, and hand-hole enclosures shall be installed so that the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible without removing any part of the building or, in underground circuits, without excavating sidewalks, paving, earth, or other substance that is to be used to establish the finished grade.
Exception: Listed boxes and hand-whole enclosures shall be permitted where covered by gravel, light aggregate, or non-cohesive granulated soil if their location is effectively identified and accessible, for excavation.
This exception would equate to the same action as removing the insulation.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
There is nothing in that code sectio that says anything about the parts of the building being movable or not.
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