Does article 314.29 mean I can't cover junction boxes with insulation?

[don_resqcapt19]

And that changes 314.29, how?[/QUOTEi



Iwire asked you;

OK than I expect you will start failing all installations with boxes above suspended ceilings.

You responded;
We should, there is nothing in the wording of the code to permit that installation.

Then I responded with;300.23 Panels Designed to Allow Access. Cables, raceways, and equipment installed behind panels designed to allow access, including suspended ceiling panels, shall be arranged and secured so as to allow the removal of panels and access to the equipment.

Are the removable ceiling panels part of the building? Are you going to remove them to gain access the the junction box above the removable panels?
If the answers to both of those questions are yes, than how is that not a violation of the wording of 314.29?

 

[Gregg Harris]

Are the removable ceiling panels part of the building? Are you going to remove them to gain access the the junction box above the removable panels?
If the answers to both of those questions are yes, than how is that not a violation of the wording of 314.29?

It would be an appurtenance and not part of the structural of the building that would require removal to expose the wiring.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

It would be an appurtenance and not part of the structural of the building that would require removal to expose the wiring.

I don't see the word "structural" in the code section in question.

 

[Gregg Harris]

I don't see the word "structural" in the code section in question.

If the codes used every discriptive word possible to get a point accross they would then become instruction manuals, and that is one thing the design manual does not want to create.

 

[jap]

Are the removable ceiling panels part of the building? Are you going to remove them to gain access the the junction box above the removable panels?
If the answers to both of those questions are yes, than how is that not a violation of the wording of 314.29?

If you consider the ceiling tiles part of the building, which it seems you do,then your saying that you'd fail every commercial building with electrical junction boxes installed above the layin ceilings ?

 

[ActionDave]

How does one equate moving a bit of insulation or a ceiling tile to either of them being removed?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

If you consider the ceiling tiles part of the building, which it seems you do,then your saying that you'd fail every commercial building with electrical junction boxes installed above the layin ceilings ?

I am saying that is what the code rule, as currently written, requires.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

How does one equate moving a bit of insulation or a ceiling tile to either of them being removed?

I would red tag any installation where the boxes were covered by insulation. The issue is being able to find them, not the moving of the insulation. If the code wants to permit them to be covered, then it needs an exception, like the one for underground, where the loction of the covered box is required to be identified.

 

[Gregg Harris]

I am saying that is what the code rule, as currently written, requires.

don you keep supporting your theory on this when 300.23 is quite clear in what it states.

300.23 Panels Designed to Allow Access. Cables, raceways, and equipment installed behind panels designed to allow access, including suspended ceiling panels, shall be arranged and secured so as to allow the removal of panels and access to the equipment.

In reference to the marking the locations for outlet boxes and junction boxes IMHO is a good idea but I do not believe the CMP would accept a requirement to locate them, but you can submit a proposal for it and I will be glad to follow it.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

don you keep supporting your theory on this when 300.23 is quite clear in what it states.

300.23 Panels Designed to Allow Access. Cables, raceways, and equipment installed behind panels designed to allow access, including suspended ceiling panels, shall be arranged and secured so as to allow the removal of panels and access to the equipment.

In reference to the marking the locations for outlet boxes and junction boxes IMHO is a good idea but I do not believe the CMP would accept a requirement to locate them, but you can submit a proposal for it and I will be glad to follow it.

I don't see anything in 90.3 that says something in one Chapter 3 article can modify something in another Chapter 3 article. The rules in Chapters 1 through 4 can only be modified by rules in other rules of Chapters 1 through 4, where the rules specifically state that. I don't see anything in 300.23 that says it modifies the rule in 314.29.

 

[iwire]

I would red tag any installation where the boxes were covered by insulation. The issue is being able to find them, not the moving of the insulation. If the code wants to permit them to be covered, then it needs an exception, like the one for underground, where the loction of the covered box is required to be identified.

Don, you really seem to be suggesting selective enforcement.

 

[ggunn]

If you need a law degree to figure out whether you can cover a junction box with blown or rollout insulation, something else is fundamentally wrong.

 

[Gregg Harris]

I don't see anything in 90.3 that says something in one Chapter 3 article can modify something in another Chapter 3 article. The rules in Chapters 1 through 4 can only be modified by rules in other rules of Chapters 1 through 4, where the rules specifically state that. I don't see anything in 300.23 that says it modifies the rule in 314.29.

I do not see where anything is being modified.

 

[jap]

Generally, an above ceiling inspection is done prior to the ceiling tiles or insulation being installed.
So I'd get my green tag on the above ceiling inspection and then if an inspector was to come back and
fail it on the final,when the ceiling tiles or insulation was put in, it would'nt be my problem.

If you consider ceiling tiles as part of a building that cant be installed where they cover up a junction box
above it,then,I dont see how you could allow a sheetrock ceiling installed in any residential structure,,,,,,,
since it covers upall the junction boxes in the attic above it.

 

[Lectricbota]

I would red tag any installation where the boxes were covered by insulation. The issue is being able to find them, not the moving of the insulation. If the code wants to permit them to be covered, then it needs an exception, like the one for underground, where the loction of the covered box is required to be identified.

So if I then ask for a code reference is this where I get **because I said so**?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

So if I then ask for a code reference is this where I get **because I said so**?

The code reference would be 314.29 and you had to move part of the building (the insulation) to get to the box.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I do not see where anything is being modified.

314.29 says you can't move part of the building to access the box. The insulation is part of the building. There is nothing in 300.23 that modifies this so 314.29 controls.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Don, you really seem to be suggesting selective enforcement.

In this application, I am. I would red tag junction boxes covered by insulation, but would not red tag boxes behind access panels or above a removable ceiling.

 

[GoldDigger]

I dont see how you could allow a sheetrock ceiling installed in any residential structure,,,,,,,
since it covers upall the junction boxes in the attic above it.

You only have to be able to access the open (covered) side of the box. If it was installed facing properly the ceiling sheetrock will not cover it!
Now if you add a floor in the attic, that would be a problem.

 

[jap]

You only have to be able to access the open (covered) side of the box. If it was installed facing properly the ceiling sheetrock will not cover it!
Now if you add a floor in the attic, that would be a problem.

How do you intend to access the jboxes unless you go into the attic?
You have to go into the attic through an access panel do you not?
Hence a removable panel just like a layin ceiling.