Electricity cost estimate

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delectric123

Senior Member
Location
South Dakota
I have a 120/240 Delta 4 wire service powering a group of hog finishers. I would like to make an estimate of the operating cost per hour with the ventilation going 100%. I took a reading of the amps. A:151 B:168 C:151. About 130 amps of the load is 3 ph. fans, the rest is T8 fluorescent lighting, and a few amps for controls. So, can i figure 80% power factor? Will the utility use the phase with highest KW for metering? That being said, should i calculate as follows? 240 * 168 * 1.732 * .8 / 1000 = 55.9 KW $0.07 per KW/hour * 56 KW/hour = $3.92 per hour. Does that seam reasonable?
 
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Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
I have a 120/240 Delta 4 wire service powering a group of hog finishers. I would like to make an estimate of the operating cost per hour with the ventilation going 100%. I took a reading of the amps. A:151 B:168 C:151. About 130 amps of the load is 3 ph. fans, the rest is T8 fluorescent lighting, and a few amps for controls. So, can i figure 80% power factor? Will the utility use the phase with highest KW for metering? That being said, should i calculate as follows? 240 * 168 * 1.732 * .8 / 1000 = 55.9 KW $0.07 per KW/hour * 56 KW/hour = $3.92 per hour. Does that seam reasonable?
Your equation format is fine, but a reasonable estimate is dependent on the desired accuracy. Using the highest measured amps, as opposed to the average, will yield a high result, whereas an 80% power factor guess may compensate or it could make the result higher yet.
 

delectric123

Senior Member
Location
South Dakota
So the meter is kind of taking the average? Average is 156.6 amps. 240 * 156.6 * 1.732 * 0.8 / 1000 = 52 KW/h ----------------------52 * $0.07 = $3.64 per hour
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
So the meter is kind of taking the average? Average is 156.6 amps. 240 * 156.6 * 1.732 * 0.8 / 1000 = 52 KW/h ----------------------52 * $0.07 = $3.64 per hour

No, the meter measures actual total KW even if the load is not balanced. It just so happens that your example works because you have a reasonably balanced load. The POCO meter will read the actual total KW even if you had all the load on just 2 phases.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Or you can go read your kWH meter when everything is running, then come back in an hour and read it again, then subtract the larger number from the smaller one...
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
So the meter is kind of taking the average? ...
Well not really, but kind of. It uses wattmeters... but electrical principles still hold true. When currents are unbalanced, it's fairly obvious that using the highest line current measurement will result in a high result, and using the lowest measurement will yield a low result. Without knowing each individual line current's power factor, the best guess number to use would be the average amps.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Or you can go read your kWH meter when everything is running, then come back in an hour and read it again, then subtract the larger number from the smaller one...
That'd be the best method... but only if what he's figuring is the only load on the meter for the hour. :roll:
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Figuring the ventilation running at 100% would give you a worst case energy consumption, but most of these places use variable speed fans and/or multiple stages of fans that will come on at different temperatures. I sure hope we don't get very much weather that would call for 100% ventilation for too long of a time. If the system is designed well it shouldn't need 100% for any extended time. Misters and or swamp coolers also will reduce needed air flow. Another load you did not mention was feed systems. They are more intermittent in nature but can still run somewhat significant amount. Most of the time water needs pumped also.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
So the meter is kind of taking the average? Average is 156.6 amps. 240 * 156.6 * 1.732 * 0.8 / 1000 = 52 KW/h ----------------------52 * $0.07 = $3.64 per hour

Wow 7 cents a KWh is low for a commercial or industrial service, as well as no peek demand? PF penalties?

Our utility is second highest in the nation and for just a residential service we are over 16 cents a KWH with it going up if we use over 700 KWH's a month to about 23 cents a KWH, I think Com ED is the highest.

My best suggestion is to get actual billings for this place as no kind of measurements will be as accurate as using the actual utility bill that you could give a fair estimate on, using a two year billing cycle and finding a yearly average then break it down to weeks days and even hours if this is needed which can be allot more accurate as the meter measures the correct KWH that flows through it, even if all the load was on one or two phases just like a gas pump at a service station, there are no averaging from one phase to another if it measures 400 watts on A 200 on B and 300 on C it will record 900 watts of usage per hour, no state utility board would ever allow any less accurate method of electrical usage, but if you look at the actual utility bill you will find many other charges such as demand and PF as well as delivery, and some might charge for line maintenance, so actual charges will vary for many reasons, and if the loads change hour to hour day to day as well as off times such as weekends and nights if the operation is not a 24/7 plant, being that this is a farm the utility could be charging some special rate and maybe even giving farms a break.

The way I was shown was to take the lowest amp reading * 240 * 1.732 *.8 with will give you the KW of the balanced load across the three phase, take away this current from the two higher phases and calculate the results of the lowest of these to phases at the 240 volt and just the .8 PF, then take away the lowest current of these two phases from the highest and calculate this current at 120 volts and the .8 pf

Heres an example, lets say you have 40 amps on A, 20 amps on B and 30 amps on C

20 * 240 * 1.732 * .8 = 6650.9 watts
taking away the 20 amps from A and C give you 20 on A and 10 on C will give you 10 amps on both @ 240 volts single phase.
so 10 * 240 * .8 = 1920 watts
this leaves 10 watts on A @ 120 volts
10 8 120 8 .8 = 920 watts
so 6650.9 + 1920 + 920 = 9490.9 total watts that the meter recorded?

Is this the correct way, well it made sense when I was told this method but I'm not sure if it is the correct way and if it is exactly how the meter will record it?

But as you can see just taking an average between all three phases you end up with 9976.32 watts which does error just about 500 watts higher so both methods are close.

But the main problem with either of these methods will be the sample rate and actual load diversity , as the current can vary over time and unless you know exactly how long each load runs over a given amount of time the error ratio can go up or down, I have seen people try to guesstimate how much there bill will be by taking current readings on single phase services and still have a 40% error when they get their bill because they don't realize how much load diversity plays a very big part in how the bill comes out, and trying to put down a figure that could come back and bite you when the customer gets a much larger bill or less? lets say they are wanting this info to claim on tax's and it comes in short, they might try to get the differance from your liability insurance
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Wow 7 cents a KWh is low for a commercial or industrial service, as well as no peek demand? PF penalties?

Our utility is second highest in the nation and for just a residential service we are over 16 cents a KWH with it going up if we use over 700 KWH's a month to about 23 cents a KWH, I think Com ED is the highest.

My best suggestion is to get actual billings for this place as no kind of measurements will be as accurate as using the actual utility bill that you could give a fair estimate on, using a two year billing cycle and finding a yearly average then break it down to weeks days and even hours if this is needed which can be allot more accurate as the meter measures the correct KWH that flows through it, even if all the load was on one or two phases just like a gas pump at a service station, there are no averaging from one phase to another if it measures 400 watts on A 200 on B and 300 on C it will record 900 watts of usage per hour, no state utility board would ever allow any less accurate method of electrical usage, but if you look at the actual utility bill you will find many other charges such as demand and PF as well as delivery, and some might charge for line maintenance, so actual charges will vary for many reasons, and if the loads change hour to hour day to day as well as off times such as weekends and nights if the operation is not a 24/7 plant, being that this is a farm the utility could be charging some special rate and maybe even giving farms a break.

The way I was shown was to take the lowest amp reading * 240 * 1.732 *.8 with will give you the KW of the balanced load across the three phase, take away this current from the two higher phases and calculate the results of the lowest of these to phases at the 240 volt and just the .8 PF, then take away the lowest current of these two phases from the highest and calculate this current at 120 volts and the .8 pf

Heres an example, lets say you have 40 amps on A, 20 amps on B and 30 amps on C

20 * 240 * 1.732 * .8 = 6650.9 watts
taking away the 20 amps from A and C give you 20 on A and 10 on C will give you 10 amps on both @ 240 volts single phase.
so 10 * 240 * .8 = 1920 watts
this leaves 10 watts on A @ 120 volts
10 8 120 8 .8 = 920 watts
so 6650.9 + 1920 + 920 = 9490.9 total watts that the meter recorded?

Is this the correct way, well it made sense when I was told this method but I'm not sure if it is the correct way and if it is exactly how the meter will record it?

But as you can see just taking an average between all three phases you end up with 9976.32 watts which does error just about 500 watts higher so both methods are close.

But the main problem with either of these methods will be the sample rate and actual load diversity , as the current can vary over time and unless you know exactly how long each load runs over a given amount of time the error ratio can go up or down, I have seen people try to guesstimate how much there bill will be by taking current readings on single phase services and still have a 40% error when they get their bill because they don't realize how much load diversity plays a very big part in how the bill comes out, and trying to put down a figure that could come back and bite you when the customer gets a much larger bill or less? lets say they are wanting this info to claim on tax's and it comes in short, they might try to get the differance from your liability insurance

Here is what rate would have been in 2012 for an installation like the OP has in my neck of the woods:

 

robbietan

Senior Member
Location
Antipolo City
So the meter is kind of taking the average? Average is 156.6 amps. 240 * 156.6 * 1.732 * 0.8 / 1000 = 52 KW/h ----------------------52 * $0.07 = $3.64 per hour

the GE meters the poco installs here average measurements in a 15 minute span. so power and power factor are computed using average values
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
the GE meters the poco installs here average measurements in a 15 minute span. so power and power factor are computed using average values

If they are like the other power meters I have installed they read the maximum demand at 15 minute intervals, not averaging anything
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
I have a 120/240 Delta 4 wire service powering a group of hog finishers. I would like to make an estimate of the operating cost per hour with the ventilation going 100%. I took a reading of the amps. A:151 B:168 C:151. About 130 amps of the load is 3 ph. fans, the rest is T8 fluorescent lighting, and a few amps for controls. So, can i figure 80% power factor? Will the utility use the phase with highest KW for metering? That being said, should i calculate as follows? 240 * 168 * 1.732 * .8 / 1000 = 55.9 KW $0.07 per KW/hour * 56 KW/hour = $3.92 per hour. Does that seam reasonable?

That is for an hour. If you use that you will come up with over $2700 worth of energy for the month. On top of that there is a demand charge, not sure what your cost per kW is but that will be the maximum load over a 15 minute interval that you will have to pay for all month. so if you use 52 kW for the instant the meter is reading the demand and you use 2 kW every hour for the rest of the month, you are going to get charged for 52 kW in power plus the energy charge.
Currently we don't have a poor PF charge, but our worst account is 70%, the rest are above 80%.
 

mivey

Senior Member
If they are like the other power meters I have installed they read the maximum demand at 15 minute intervals, not averaging anything
That is not the way they work. They average the demand over the 15 minute interval.
 

mivey

Senior Member
...but that will be the maximum load over a 15 minute interval that you will have to pay for all month. so if you use 52 kW for the instant the meter is reading the demand...
It is the average load over 15 minutes. I seriously doubt your meters are recording the instantaneous demand for billing. That would be unfair and not have a sound basis in cost.

The demand is most likely the total energy used over the 15 minute period divided by the period. For example: 12 kWh in a 15 minute period would yield 12.5kWh / 0.25h = 50 kW demand for that period. Most use a rolling 15 or 30 minute window and the highest average becomes the metered peak demand for the billing period.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
It is the average load over 15 minutes. I seriously doubt your meters are recording the instantaneous demand for billing. That would be unfair and not have a sound basis in cost.

The demand is most likely the total energy used over the 15 minute period divided by the period. For example: 12 kWh in a 15 minute period would yield 12.5kWh / 0.25h = 50 kW demand for that period. Most use a rolling 15 or 30 minute window and the highest average becomes the metered peak demand for the billing period.

The old meters just had a demand needle that moved up that recorded the peek demand, it was just reset by the meter reader each time the meter was read, it was reset via a key through the glass that would have a lead seal installed after it was reset, not sure if this is the same way the newer electronic meters do but the ones around here (not the smart ones) have a demand reset button in the front on the glass envelope under a cover again with a lead seal over it, but I was told that the peek demand stood for that billing cycle which in most areas was monthly.

The meter sums the per-phase values.
Ah ok.
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
Location
-
Occupation
Engineer/Technician
It is the average load over 15 minutes. I seriously doubt your meters are recording the instantaneous demand for billing. That would be unfair and not have a sound basis in cost.

The demand is most likely the total energy used over the 15 minute period divided by the period. For example: 12 kWh in a 15 minute period would yield 12.5kWh / 0.25h = 50 kW demand for that period. Most use a rolling 15 or 30 minute window and the highest average becomes the metered peak demand for the billing period.

Wait, even for the needle type? We still have these in place and are in the process of getting rid of all of the ones we have left now.

Edit to add. Sorry. I have been schooled.
 
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