how to use this tool?

[ggunn]

So I guess a hammer on a rock is right out?

 

[Besoeker]

Three pages for the correct operation of a simple had tool?
Slow news day or what!

 

[GoldDigger]

So I guess a hammer on a rock is right out?

Is the rock listed or identified by its manufacturer for that purpose?

 

[rrr_usty]

Metric Bolt Cutter

Metric Bolt Cutter

Any idea where I can purchase bolt cutters that can be used on M3 or larger, I have checked with the supply houses, etc.

 

[PetrosA]

Three pages for the correct operation of a simple had tool?
Slow news day or what!

No. It's an effect of how our trade is educated, or rather, how it's not. A few years back I spoke with a pretty big sales rep for Knipex tools who told me about one of the problems he noticed about breaking into the US market with linesmans pliers - American customers were wary of lighter weight pliers because they wouldn't work as well for hammering romex staples in with. When he passed this on to the Germans, they were dumbfounded, "Who would use their pliers as a hammer? They are not designed for hammering!" Well, hundreds of thousands of electricians in America have learned that you use your Kleins for hammering romex staples, and now Knipex also makes "New England" style linesman pliers that weigh enough to use as a hammer.

I can't speak to union training programs and how they teach the use of tools, but non union training is pretty much limited to whatever the guy showing you the ropes knows and that's often not a whole lot, especially for residential electricians. Even some of the supposed "specialists" I've seen doing control work for a large natural gas pipeline company at a measuring station were using rudimentary tools for applying terminals and they were punching holes through the insulated crimps using the wrong divet on their tool. Very unprofessional in my eyes.

When a thread like this starts, I try to offer the best advice I can knowing how hard it is to learn anything in the field. Maybe it looks ridiculous from that side of the pond, and it probably is, but it's our sad reality.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

that does not mean you can only use the manufacturer's tool.

it means the connector has to be identified in some way that allows you to select the correct tool.

That is the correct, but many of the small crimp terminal manufacturers make crimp tools, and for the most part they only list their tool as being the suitable tool. I have never seen the type of tool that is the subject of this thread, identified as the correct tool for any crimp.

 

[kwired]

No. It's an effect of how our trade is educated, or rather, how it's not. A few years back I spoke with a pretty big sales rep for Knipex tools who told me about one of the problems he noticed about breaking into the US market with linesmans pliers - American customers were wary of lighter weight pliers because they wouldn't work as well for hammering romex staples in with. When he passed this on to the Germans, they were dumbfounded, "Who would use their pliers as a hammer? They are not designed for hammering!" Well, hundreds of thousands of electricians in America have learned that you use your Kleins for hammering romex staples, and now Knipex also makes "New England" style linesman pliers that weigh enough to use as a hammer.

I can't speak to union training programs and how they teach the use of tools, but non union training is pretty much limited to whatever the guy showing you the ropes knows and that's often not a whole lot, especially for residential electricians. Even some of the supposed "specialists" I've seen doing control work for a large natural gas pipeline company at a measuring station were using rudimentary tools for applying terminals and they were punching holes through the insulated crimps using the wrong divet on their tool. Very unprofessional in my eyes.

When a thread like this starts, I try to offer the best advice I can knowing how hard it is to learn anything in the field. Maybe it looks ridiculous from that side of the pond, and it probably is, but it's our sad reality.

How about this pliers:


which is intended to be used as a hammer?

 

[PetrosA]

How about this pliers:


which is intended to be used as a hammer?

Sure Like you said, those are intended to be used as a hammer. Lineman pliers aren't. If it's possible to find the origin of useage, I suspect that lineman pliers were first used to tap the screwdriver to tighten locknuts, but guys took it further and started using them to hammer staples when staples came into use and really took off when staple design went from cut sheet metal to wire.

I think it's also connected in some way with "Yankee ingenuity." We're very comfortable with looking outside the box for new ways to do things, including how we use tools. A character like MacGuyver probably wouldn't have been written in any other culture than ours. The danger in that is that it can make you lazy when it comes to learning "rules" for how things get done and when tools and hardware are engineered to work a certain way. When the installers don't understand that, you get overtorqued screws, nuts and bolts, poorly crimped terminals, poorly stripped wires and cables with damage to the wire or insulation, overdriven staples, etc.

Electrical work, like any other craft, can be learned well either by schooling or apprenticing. We here in the US have neglected those systems for a long time and many people in the field have learned by "picking up" what they could along the way. Some are better at picking up knowledge than others, but regardless, it's not a very good way to learn a craft.

 

[kwired]

Sure Like you said, those are intended to be used as a hammer. Lineman pliers aren't. If it's possible to find the origin of useage, I suspect that lineman pliers were first used to tap the screwdriver to tighten locknuts, but guys took it further and started using them to hammer staples when staples came into use and really took off when staple design went from cut sheet metal to wire.

I think it's also connected in some way with "Yankee ingenuity." We're very comfortable with looking outside the box for new ways to do things, including how we use tools. A character like MacGuyver probably wouldn't have been written in any other culture than ours. The danger in that is that it can make you lazy when it comes to learning "rules" for how things get done and when tools and hardware are engineered to work a certain way. When the installers don't understand that, you get overtorqued screws, nuts and bolts, poorly crimped terminals, poorly stripped wires and cables with damage to the wire or insulation, overdriven staples, etc.

Electrical work, like any other craft, can be learned well either by schooling or apprenticing. We here in the US have neglected those systems for a long time and many people in the field have learned by "picking up" what they could along the way. Some are better at picking up knowledge than others, but regardless, it's not a very good way to learn a craft.

Well the screwdriver is not intended to be a chisel or punch either.
I hardly ever use a linesman pliers, but I do find it makes a better hammer than a wire cutter

For small conductors the cutter on my strippers works just fine, and saves carrying the weight of a linesman pliers in the tool pouch, for larger conductors I have cutters that work much better than a linesman pliers, but I only carry it when I know I am going to be needing it.

 

[petersonra]

I can't speak to union training programs and how they teach the use of tools, but non union training is pretty much limited to whatever the guy showing you the ropes knows and that's often not a whole lot, especially for residential electricians.

Union or non-union formal electrician apprenticeship programs are pretty comparable, and both about as good as you are going to get.

OJT for both mostly range from poor to mediocre in my experience. Part of the problem is that most people are poor teachers. Expecting the average journeyman to have the skills to teach the average apprentice does not work all that well in any environment. There are a few tradesmen that are much better at teaching the next generation than are the average tradesmen. But they are not as common as we might want to believe. It is a completely different skill set that for the most part you either have or do not have.

There are also a fair number of so called electricians out there that are completely clueless. They should not be allowed within 100 yards of someone who requires any kind of OJT. In fact, they should not be allowed near electrical wires either.

Incidentally these observations would apply to most jobs. It is not an electrician specific problem.

 

[K8MHZ]

Also remember that no matter what kind or quality of apprenticeship, it's up to the student to get the most out of it.

There were 40 in my class. I would say that about half were just there for the check and did just enough stay in the apprenticeship. There were about 10 of us that were super serious about class and would 'compete' to see who could get the highest scores on the tests.

We were also rotated, so we worked with many different journeymen at many different companies. Some didn't like that. They wanted to get comfortable doing (IMO) mindless work all day and make big bucks doing it. Others, like me, loved it and always looked forward to the next new horizon.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

... A few years back I spoke with a pretty big sales rep for Knipex tools who told me about one of the problems he noticed about breaking into the US market with linesmans pliers - American customers were wary of lighter weight pliers because they wouldn't work as well for hammering romex staples in with. When he passed this on to the Germans, they were dumbfounded, "Who would use their pliers as a hammer? They are not designed for hammering!" Well, hundreds of thousands of electricians in America have learned that you use your Kleins for hammering romex staples, and now Knipex also makes "New England" style linesman pliers that weigh enough to use as a hammer. ...

We have the same type of thing when we compare NEMA and IEC motor starters. The NEMA starters are designed with the idea that we don't treat our equipment nicely...we often try to drive it to 125% or more of its rating. You can most often get away with that with a NEMA starter, but not with an IEC starter.

As far as using the Kleins for a hammer...just don't hit the lineman on his head.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

There is no way that contractors are going to buy specific crimps for each connector. Of course a manufacturer who makes the crimps wants you to buy their tool but I can't imagine an inspector asking to see what tool you used to install the connectors.

 

[qcroanoke]

There is no way that contractors are going to buy specific crimps for each connector. Of course a manufacturer who makes the crimps wants you to buy their tool but I can't imagine an inspector asking to see what tool you used to install the connectors.

Dennis I know you do mostly residential so I understand why you would say that.
A lot of our customers demand we use the crimp tool required by the manufacturer and they want to be able to see on the crimp the trademark of the manufacturer or some evidence that the correct tool was used.

 

[PetrosA]

There is no way that contractors are going to buy specific crimps for each connector. Of course a manufacturer who makes the crimps wants you to buy their tool but I can't imagine an inspector asking to see what tool you used to install the connectors.

I agree that buying every manufacturer's tool for their terminals would be ridiculous, and I admit to using my single ratcheting crimp tool on any brand of terminals I happen to buy. If I were an inspector though, I might check the crimped terminals to see if the installer had used a suitable tool. There's a difference between using a different brand of correct tool versus using a cheap brand of incorrect tool for making crimp connections, just as there's a difference between using Kleins or a hammer for driving staples.

The funny thing is, I don't use pliers or a hammer for driving staples

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis I know you do mostly residential so I understand why you would say that.
A lot of our customers demand we use the crimp tool required by the manufacturer and they want to be able to see on the crimp the trademark of the manufacturer or some evidence that the correct tool was used.

And I understand that in many cases there may be a need. :thumbsup:

 

[fmtjfw]

For residential we use three crimpers:
1) large Klein cutter, crimper only #14 through #10
2) buchanan crimper for round splices
3) adjustable crimper for #8 through 250kcmil

 

[GoldDigger]

... and they want to be able to see on the crimp the trademark of the manufacturer or some evidence that the correct tool was used.

I would expect that to have a visual marking on the crimp is only practical with the larger range of crimp terminals.
What is the smallest wire size crimp that you have an id-embossing crimp die for?

 

[PetrosA]

What is the smallest wire size crimp that you have an id-embossing crimp die for?

My CT-1551 Panduit tool for red, blue and yellow insulated terminals (22-10 AWG) is ID embossing.

 

[JJWalecka]

His bio says he is an apprentice. At least he is asking questions instead of thinking he knows everything like I did when I was a 4th year apprentice.

:angel:

:thumbsup: