petersonra
Senior Member
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- Northern illinois
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- engineer
UL lists tools for use with other manufacturers connectors. one thing that is required by UL is a unique mark the tool leaves in the connector once the crimp is completed.
how to use this tool?
- Thread starter wirenut45
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UL lists tools for use with other manufacturers connectors. one thing that is required by UL is a unique mark the tool leaves in the connector once the crimp is completed.
Fulthrotl
~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~
- Occupation
- E
There is no way that contractors are going to buy specific crimps for each connector. Of course a manufacturer who makes the crimps wants you to buy their tool but I can't imagine an inspector asking to see what tool you used to install the connectors.
i've ran into it three times now, hypress lugs must show the burndy witness mark.
it's in the specifications.... and the burndy dies leave the die number in the lug,
and it has to match the number inked on the lug.
so the dieless burndy crimps, while perfectly acceptable, won't meet the specification.
seems that harbor freight has those worthless hydraulic hex crimpers for $50,
there has been a problem with crimped lugs overheating, and the requirement is now
showing up in general notes.
- Location
- Illinois
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- retired electrician
I have never seen a crimp tool, other than a "controlled crimp" type tool that leave an ID mark on the completed crimp. The plier type tools do not leave such a mark.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Interesting. The dieless tool does leave an ID mark, but you would have to look at the instructions for the terminals or the tool to find out what terminals it has been listed for.
kwired
Electron manager
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- NE Nebraska
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- EC
And I believe what he is saying is to throw away your plier type tool, because it is not listed by any connector as an acceptable tool to crimp with
I myself think if you have a conductor that carries significant current, there may be reason to have more concern over proper termination, but you can get away with a lot on low energy circuits. A 14 or 16 AWG conductor that only carries a few VA is not going to heat many improperly crimped connections up to a point they will fail.
ADD:
Of course when talking 12 volts just a few VA starts to become a higher current level. But @ 120 volts or higher is not much current at all.
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K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
And I believe what he is saying is to throw away your plier type tool, because it is not listed by any connector as an acceptable tool to crimp with
I myself think if you have a conductor that carries significant current, there may be reason to have more concern over proper termination, but you can get away with a lot on low energy circuits. A 14 or 16 AWG conductor that only carries a few VA is not going to heat many improperly crimped connections up to a point they will fail.
ADD:
Of course when talking 12 volts just a few VA starts to become a higher current level. But @ 120 volts or higher is not much current at all.
I have been working on 12 VDC systems for decades and have found hundreds of failed crimped terminals. Many heated to the point of melting the insulation bushing on the connector along with some of the insulation on the conductor.
Around 1980 I started a business doing 12 VDC work on cars, trucks, boats, heavy equipment and the like. I never relied on crimp connections. All my connections were soldered. A good soldered connection, which is still crimped, will almost never fail and can take far more abuse than a plier crimped one. The soldered connections were insulated using shrink tube.
I first saw a ratchet crimper that would actually make a great connection somewhere around 1990. It was 180 bucks and you had to use 'ico-beam' connectors which were a couple bucks a pop.
It was very common for me to see connectors to headlights fail. Each light was 55 watts. Feeding two of them, 110 watts, with a regular crimp connector was asking for certain failure. There is a reason the automakers use calibrated crimp connections with no insulation and use a connector with insulation and protection independent of the factory machine (and very good) crimps.
Take a look at the sizes used on automotive systems. Most are 16 or less and I have seen many fail at the hands of stereo, alarm and accessory installers using cheapie crimp connectors.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Like I added before: the lower the voltage the more important these connections can become. Just a few VA at 120 volts likely is 5-10 amps @ 12 volts. You can often get away with poor connections when the current is in the milliamp range. Doesn't mean the connection will never fail, but may be a long time before it does.
ggunn
PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
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- Austin, TX, USA
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- Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
And it may fail sooner. Higher currents can more easily arc through a little gradu in the connection.
PetrosA
Senior Member
- Location
- Lancaster, Pennsylvania
The tool I have is branded by Panduit, and I've looked through their assortment a few times. It's amazingly confusing. Each terminal has a list of tools for use with that terminal and some include stamped steel tools (CT-100A) and plier type tools (CT-260) on the lists. Not every spec sheet has a UL/CSA symbol on it, so I assume some terminals can't be crimped to a UL or CSA standard regardless of tool used. Many terminals seem to only be rated for use with the high dollar electric crimp tools or benchtop assembly tools. There doesn't seem to be an easy way to search for terminals based on tool owned, so considering they manufacture hundreds of terminals in the 22-10 AWG range, finding compatible ones for your tool can be a nightmare.
Panduit's information mess doesn't help in a situation where it's tough enough for newbies to even figure out the difference between a stamped steel tool, pliers tool, controlled cycle tool etc., let alone for someone like me who does have a grasp on the tools, but gives up in the face of the deluge of useless information that needs to be gone through to figure out which terminals I should even consider buying for my tool. Hopefully other manufacturers have better systems in place.
Panduit's information mess doesn't help in a situation where it's tough enough for newbies to even figure out the difference between a stamped steel tool, pliers tool, controlled cycle tool etc., let alone for someone like me who does have a grasp on the tools, but gives up in the face of the deluge of useless information that needs to be gone through to figure out which terminals I should even consider buying for my tool. Hopefully other manufacturers have better systems in place.
iceworm
Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
- Location
- North of the 65 parallel
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- EE (Field - as little design as possible)
kw, K8 -
I'm not clear on your thinking. Are you saying: Today's crimp connections are not good? Today's crimp connections are inferior to soldered connections?
Limiting the discussion to small (red, blue, yellow insulated, up to #10): Personally I'm absolutely in favor of crimped connections - have been for the last thirty years. I will qualify. (Following is personal opinion - although I do have one reference)
The issues are to have a gas tight connection to prevent corrosion and wire insulation support to prevent stress cracking.
One needs a decent mil-spec lug, with a metal sleeve to grip the wire insulation. Installation tool can a double crimp ratcheting - a $50 tool will do fine, even pliers type and the OP's or auto store type will work although more difficult to install correctly.
Auto store or big box lugs are not suitable. They are not solid barrel, and they don't have the wire insulation support sleeve.
Soldering adds an additional failure point. Solder does provide a gas tight connection, however, the solder wicks up into the wire past the barrel and provides convenient point for fatigue stress failure (strands work harden and crack) As K8 noted, insulating the soldered connection with shrink will support the wire insulation and alleviate repetative stress cracking.
Crimping and soldering never looked good to me. If the crimped joint is gas tight, how is the solder going to penetrate? And if not gas tight, why crimp?
I absolutely agree that poor quality lugs, improperly installed, are highly failure prone.
And, I'm thinking you guys already knew all of this.
Here is a reference. This guy deals with mostly Owner Built and Maintained airplanes, but the physics still applies.
http://aeroelectric.com/articles.html
Scroll down to Connections and Spices - Soldered and Crimped. Attached article is from the link.
I'm also in favor of crimped connection on larger conductors - there are a few additional/different concerns. I did not want to lump all together.
ice
K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
Ice,
I am not talking about metered crimping, which is what you are describing. You are correct, solder won't help a metered crimp that is basically cold welding the conductor to the connector.
I am talking about a standard crimp followed by solder, which is superior than without the solder if soldered correctly.
A properly soldered connection will look good and not crappy with globs of solder and uneven flow and coverage.
Soldering properly is an art, and it takes time and patience. Most can't do it properly and the results are usually less than desirable.
I am not talking about metered crimping, which is what you are describing. You are correct, solder won't help a metered crimp that is basically cold welding the conductor to the connector.
I am talking about a standard crimp followed by solder, which is superior than without the solder if soldered correctly.
A properly soldered connection will look good and not crappy with globs of solder and uneven flow and coverage.
Soldering properly is an art, and it takes time and patience. Most can't do it properly and the results are usually less than desirable.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
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- Retired PV System Designer
When using stranded copper rather than stranded tinned copper wire would you follow standard soldering practice of pre-tinning the wire? That seems to me to convert a stranded wire crimp to a solid wire crimp as well as leaving potential problems of insulating flux residue.
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K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
I don't. I have found that pre-tinning stranded conductors prior to crimping will result in a poor mechanical connection after soldering.
Tinned stranded conductors are not tinned with solder. The tin on the conductor melts about 100 degrees higher than good electrical solder and doesn't compromise the crimp by melting when soldered.
iceworm
Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
- Location
- North of the 65 parallel
- Occupation
- EE (Field - as little design as possible)
I don't tin when crimping.
ice
ice
iceworm
Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
- Location
- North of the 65 parallel
- Occupation
- EE (Field - as little design as possible)
"metered crimp" vs "standard crimp"
I'm at a loss. It sounds like you are saying, "A poorly crimped connection will benifit from soldering."
If so, could be, I don't know. I would say, "Don't do poorly crimped connections."
If you are saying that one must have a ratcheting type crimper to do a crimp that does not require soldering - I do not agree. Paraphrasing your statement about soldering:
Crimping properly (using a pliers type or auto store sheet metal type) is an art, and it takes time and patience. Most can't do it properly and the results are usually less than desirable.
And if one is soldering, then you are not using insulated lugs with a wire insulation support sleeve. Not good.
If one is not going to take the time to learn to use a non-ratcheting crimper, then by all means buy a ratcheting crimper. Better yet, get one anyway. They are not expensive - $50 will get a fine one. And (yes, I'm being repetative), buy good lugs.
ice
K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
Crimping properly without a ratchet (metered) crimper will not give you an air tight connection. In most applications, that's OK. But in harsh environments it's not, and soldering that plier crimped connection will give you an air tight connection.
And of course I am not talking about soldering insulated lugs.
Also, as much as I am pro-solder, outside of doing my own work, most connections are made without due to labor intensity. I can do both, I just prefer solder in harsh conditions over a plier crimp.
The best is using a metered crimper with the proper waterproof lugs and die. I don't dispute that.
But I will just about bet the farm that a simple plier crimped connection will fail a tensile strength test long before a crimped and soldered one will. In a properly soldered connection the tensile strength of the connection will actually exceed the tensile strength of the conductor.
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K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
Ice,
Yes, I do strongly feel that a poorly crimped connection will benefit from being soldered. That's from decades of experience. I can put a 22 AWG stranded conductor in a lug designed for 10 AWG and using solder make a connection stronger than the conductor. EVERY time. I'll bet that I would get close to a 50 percent pass rate not even crimping the lug, just using the solder for the mechanical connection.
But, I have been soldering for a long time. I have done much of it right over my face under dashes of cars and not getting dripped on. I once told an employee that I could solder bark to a piss elm tree.
I have successfully soldered copper to cast iron. It's all about the surface prep and the flux and being able to solder 'under the flux' so the iron doesn't oxidize along with the proper temperature. AL can also be soldered using the same principle. But, both are very time consuming and have high failure rates compared to any other type of connection.
This discussion kind of reminds me of the Morse Code vs. text messaging contest on Leno several years ago.
Guess who won?
Yes, I do strongly feel that a poorly crimped connection will benefit from being soldered. That's from decades of experience. I can put a 22 AWG stranded conductor in a lug designed for 10 AWG and using solder make a connection stronger than the conductor. EVERY time. I'll bet that I would get close to a 50 percent pass rate not even crimping the lug, just using the solder for the mechanical connection.
But, I have been soldering for a long time. I have done much of it right over my face under dashes of cars and not getting dripped on. I once told an employee that I could solder bark to a piss elm tree.
I have successfully soldered copper to cast iron. It's all about the surface prep and the flux and being able to solder 'under the flux' so the iron doesn't oxidize along with the proper temperature. AL can also be soldered using the same principle. But, both are very time consuming and have high failure rates compared to any other type of connection.
This discussion kind of reminds me of the Morse Code vs. text messaging contest on Leno several years ago.
Guess who won?
iceworm
Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
- Location
- North of the 65 parallel
- Occupation
- EE (Field - as little design as possible)
K8 - There is no question in my mind you are competent, knowledgeable and a good guy. The following comments are offered with all due respect.
Seriously, technology has moved on since I got started in the mid-1960.
You might considered reading the article I posted and maybe even look at the AeroElectric website articles on connections. It is pretty interesting. And this guy does have his documentation
I don't expect to convince you otherwise. You have 40+ years developing your process. I do respect that. I also don't see any reason to saddle anyone with 1960s technology.
ice
And I strongly feel there is no reason to make a poorly crimped connection. That's from decades of experience.
That's great. Not to mention - could you stop the solder from wicking up the #22 wire and causing a stress cracking suceptable area? Doesn't matter, this doesn't have anything to do with reliability of a properly crimped or properly soldered connection.
Better than me. I would not solder directly over my face. No guts I guess, However, See Answer Above.
Last time I did that, I used silver solder - floride flux (as I recall). I don't recall any tendency for failure. Can't say I have ever tried this with Lead/Tin. Still, SAA
Some Grayback stoking a boiler to power his steam driven radio transmitter. :roll: Just teasing - not whipping. There will always be a place for morse operators and packet radio as well
Seriously, technology has moved on since I got started in the mid-1960.
I really like my turbo-diesel pickup a lot better than the 56 Crown Vic I was driving in high school.
My house burns half the heatng fuel of the one I grew up in.
Yes, I taught my kid how to clean and solder the magnet wire leads coming out of the hand-crank generator he wound for science fair.
Crimped lug connections have generally supplanted soldered lug connections. One would be hard pressed to find a soldered lug connection on any airplane built in the last 30 years.
And yes, I have spent a lot of time replacing improperly crimped cheap lugs - but I did it with properly crimped good lugs.
My house burns half the heatng fuel of the one I grew up in.
Yes, I taught my kid how to clean and solder the magnet wire leads coming out of the hand-crank generator he wound for science fair.
Crimped lug connections have generally supplanted soldered lug connections. One would be hard pressed to find a soldered lug connection on any airplane built in the last 30 years.
And yes, I have spent a lot of time replacing improperly crimped cheap lugs - but I did it with properly crimped good lugs.
You might considered reading the article I posted and maybe even look at the AeroElectric website articles on connections. It is pretty interesting. And this guy does have his documentation
I don't expect to convince you otherwise. You have 40+ years developing your process. I do respect that. I also don't see any reason to saddle anyone with 1960s technology.
ice
PetrosA
Senior Member
- Location
- Lancaster, Pennsylvania
Here's a German made ratcheting tool that does insulated 20-10AWG for just over $100. If the OP is still following along, this would be a good tool to get if you're going to be using terminals on a regular basis.
http://chadstoolbox.com/wiha-43618-wiha-ratchet-crimper-for-standard-conn.aspx
There are cheaper ones available from Taiwan and China, but I honestly don't know their quality so I can't make recommendations. Generally, the ones made in the US, Sweden or Germany are going to be your best bet in the long run.
http://chadstoolbox.com/wiha-43618-wiha-ratchet-crimper-for-standard-conn.aspx
There are cheaper ones available from Taiwan and China, but I honestly don't know their quality so I can't make recommendations. Generally, the ones made in the US, Sweden or Germany are going to be your best bet in the long run.
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
This discussion kind of reminds me of the Morse Code vs. text messaging contest on Leno several years ago.
Guess who won?
Were the texters using a full keyboard or multiple press codes on a numeric keypad?
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