transformer magnetizing current

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mivey

Senior Member
Also, how does the primary winding configuration in a three phase transformer effect this value.
It changes the voltage of course. Changing a delta primary to wye drops the primary coil voltage (and also the secondary voltage) by sqrt(3). Changing a wye primary to delta increases the primary coil voltage (and secondary voltage) by sqrt(3).
 

mivey

Senior Member
Say I have a wye primary delta secondary and I change it to a delta delta, or a delta wye. It was my impression that these three cases would have different magnetizing current. You do not think that is the case?
You would have to change the primary configuration. The changes to the secondary configuration just changes the secondary voltages.

Here are the secondary LG/LL voltage results in primary LL voltage per unit values:

DD to DD: 0.577/1.000
DD to DY: 1.000/1.732
DY to DY: 0.577/1.000
DY to DD: 0.333/0.577
YY to YY: 0.577/1.000
YY to YD: 0.333/0.577
YD to YD: 0.577/1.000
YD to YY: 1.000/1.732
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Well yes, I could make a cut in relay as I discussed that would open circuit the turbine below a certain wind speed, maybe 5 mph, not much energy in 5 mph.

...
Have any figures on energy output at various speeds (or a graph)?

If the transformer is direct connected (i.e. full time connection), why worry about magnetizing/inrush current... :huh:
 

mivey

Senior Member
No secret. Inrush can be upwards of ten times rated current for a short period.
The magnetising component of operating current is usually a small fraction of rated current.
On the order of a percent for the magnetizing.

add: The exciting current may only be something like 1/2 percent and the magnetizing current is a part of that.
 
Last edited:

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Making it automatic would be better.
Inherent in the suggestion. I hadn't anticipated that it might be taken otherwise.
It's a technique we employ when testing things like this:



It's mainly as a precaution to prevent possible dips affecting others connected to our supply.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
For a 1 kVA unit what are the options? Are we talking about a boatload of cash or just enough to fill a rubber ducky?
Depends on how big the duck is.......

I'd expect to pay no more that $150 for a 1kVA tranny. And not a lot more for an inverter.
In fact I was quoted about $700 for a 5kVA unit last week.
 

mivey

Senior Member
Depends on how big the duck is.......

I'd expect to pay no more that $150 for a 1kVA tranny. And not a lot more for an inverter.
In fact I was quoted about $700 for a 5kVA unit last week.
At that price it beats faffing (I had to look that word up, you silly UKean).
 

Phil Corso

Senior Member
ElectroFelon? returning to your original query:

It is only possible to calculate magnetization (or excitation) current from core-loss parameters ?provided? by the manufacturer! Why, then, can?t design parameters, for example, Ampere-Turns (hence flux density) be determined for various parts of the core.

The answer is simple; it?s not practical! There are many factors affecting design! One, to begin with, is magnetization-current wave-shape is non-linear. Another concerns construction, i.e, butt joints, corner joints, and overlap, of core laminations, impact flux-density differently! A third is the Transformer's Circuit Model; i.e., "T" or "Pi"!

So to overcome complication designers have developed empirical factors, based on much testing and experimentation, to derive simpler empirical expressions!

Regards, Phil Corso
 

Phil Corso

Senior Member
ElectroFelon? returning to your original query:

It is only possible to calculate magnetization (or excitation) current from core-loss parameters ?provided? by the manufacturer! Why, then, can?t design parameters, for example, Ampere-Turns (hence flux density) be determined for various parts of the core.

The answer is simple; it?s not practical! There are many factors affecting design! One, to begin with, is magnetization-current wave-shape is non-linear. Another concerns construction, i.e, butt joints, corner joints, and overlap, of core laminations, impact flux-density differently! A third is the Transformer's Circuit Model; i.e., "T" or "Pi"!

So to overcome complication designers have developed empirical factors, based on much testing and experimentation, to derive simpler empirical expressions!

Regards, Phil Corso
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
Hmm. There is a lot going on here, so I am going to add a bunch questions for 'felon.

1) What sort of generator is actually connected to the wind turbine? How does its frequency and voltage change with turbine speed? Does the generator have fixed or variable excitation?

2) At what voltage do you want to operate the MPP at? Would it work fine at your 24V battery voltage, or would you want it to operate at higher voltage and thus lower current?

3) With your existing transformer, how many leads are brought out? Do you have the option of easily re-configuring the primary and secondary arrangements?

4) Are you currently actually seeing startup problems...or are you trying to anticipate and avoid them?

Regarding magnetizing and inrush current: The magnetizing and inrush current are set by the design of the transformer _and_ the applied voltage _to the coils_ and frequency.

In general, as you increase the voltage applied to the transformer, the magnetizing current will increase. Similarly, as you _reduce_ the applied frequency, the magnetizing current will increase. The net result is that if you operate at 'constant V/Hz' you will find roughly constant magnetizing current. If you increase the voltage applied to the coils, you will increase the magnetizing current, and if the voltage gets high enough, you will saturate the core and your magnetizing current will climb rapidly.

If you change the primary configuration from wye to delta, you are effectively placing 1.73x the voltage across each of the transformer's coils. The 'external' voltage remains the same, but the voltage across the individual coils has changed... probably pushing the transformer into saturation and tremendously increasing magnetizing current.

'Inrush' current is a special case of magnetizing current, and doesn't actually occur right at the instant voltage is applied, but instead appears perhaps 1/4 -1/2 cycle later. During a half cycle of the applied AC voltage, the magnetic flux in the core will go from maximum of one polarity to maximum of the other polarity. But on initial application of AC to an inductor the initial flux state of the core is not synchronized with the applied voltage, and you can get transient core saturation effects. A saturated core means huge magnetizing currents, the 'inrush'. You can eliminate inrush by appropriate timing of switching, or by synchronizing the flux in the core with the applied AC, etc. But a generator starting from 0Hz supplying the transformer shouldn't have a problem with inrush.

If the load on the secondary has startup current, this will show up in addition to the transformer inrush. Say the secondary is a rectifier feeding a capacitor bank: this looks like a short on startup!

-Jon
 
magnetizing current and inrush current are different?
Yes. By orders of magnitude.
Ok hold the phone. Maybe I am not using the correct terms. I was using inrush and magnetizing current interchangeably. Does magnetizing current refer to the current during steady state operation with no load on the secondary and inrush the high current from the apparent short circuit until mutual induction develops? I think inrush current is what I was addressing in the OP.

Have any figures on energy output at various speeds (or a graph)?

If the transformer is direct connected (i.e. full time connection), why worry about magnetizing/inrush current... :huh:

No graph but it would be great to make one. Without having a wind tunnel at my disposal, I could mount it on the truck and drive at various speeds to make one. I may actually do this at some point as The maximum power point controller I want to get is pretty sweet and can be programmed to operate the turbine at peak efficiency at all speeds, but I need to know what values to program it with. Connecting a wind turbine that operates over a wide rpm range directly to a battery is of course much less than ideal and a power point tracking controller can, I have heard, get twice the energy out in some cases. Well if the wind stops, the turbine stops and it will need to start from 0 RPM once the wind picks up again.

Depends on how big the duck is.......

I'd expect to pay no more that $150 for a 1kVA tranny. And not a lot more for an inverter.
In fact I was quoted about $700 for a 5kVA unit last week.

But if its a transformer when you derate for the frequency you arent looking at a 1KVA transformer anymore. Like I said, the controller has a 250VDC limit which isnt enough so some sort of priliminary step down would be required. I have heard the idea thrown around of Using a VFD and hacking into its DC buss and using that as port of the conversion system. The goal is to get away from using a transformer.

Hmm. There is a lot going on here, so I am going to add a bunch questions for 'felon.

1) What sort of generator is actually connected to the wind turbine? How does its frequency and voltage change with turbine speed? Does the generator have fixed or variable excitation?

2) At what voltage do you want to operate the MPP at? Would it work fine at your 24V battery voltage, or would you want it to operate at higher voltage and thus lower current?

3) With your existing transformer, how many leads are brought out? Do you have the option of easily re-configuring the primary and secondary arrangements?

4) Are you currently actually seeing startup problems...or are you trying to anticipate and avoid them?

Regarding magnetizing and inrush current: The magnetizing and inrush current are set by the design of the transformer _and_ the applied voltage _to the coils_ and frequency.

In general, as you increase the voltage applied to the transformer, the magnetizing current will increase. Similarly, as you _reduce_ the applied frequency, the magnetizing current will increase. The net result is that if you operate at 'constant V/Hz' you will find roughly constant magnetizing current. If you increase the voltage applied to the coils, you will increase the magnetizing current, and if the voltage gets high enough, you will saturate the core and your magnetizing current will climb rapidly.

If you change the primary configuration from wye to delta, you are effectively placing 1.73x the voltage across each of the transformer's coils. The 'external' voltage remains the same, but the voltage across the individual coils has changed... probably pushing the transformer into saturation and tremendously increasing magnetizing current.

'Inrush' current is a special case of magnetizing current, and doesn't actually occur right at the instant voltage is applied, but instead appears perhaps 1/4 -1/2 cycle later. During a half cycle of the applied AC voltage, the magnetic flux in the core will go from maximum of one polarity to maximum of the other polarity. But on initial application of AC to an inductor the initial flux state of the core is not synchronized with the applied voltage, and you can get transient core saturation effects. A saturated core means huge magnetizing currents, the 'inrush'. You can eliminate inrush by appropriate timing of switching, or by synchronizing the flux in the core with the applied AC, etc. But a generator starting from 0Hz supplying the transformer shouldn't have a problem with inrush.

If the load on the secondary has startup current, this will show up in addition to the transformer inrush. Say the secondary is a rectifier feeding a capacitor bank: this looks like a short on startup!

-Jon

I am a bit rusty on my motor theory, so I forget/dont know what type the generator is. Permanent magnet? Its 12 pole, .5V per RPM unloaded, self exciting, no brushes. For a 24V bank, you would charge at around 30V. I would double check, but I dont think the controller has a specific MPPT range so as long as the DC input is above 30 the controller can work its magic and operate the turbine at max power point at any RPM (assuming I have figured out the MPP curve as mentioned above). The input could be as high as 250V, but of course some cushion is better. The transformer I am currently using is make by the manufacturer or a vendor of theirs - dont think its an off the shelf. The primary and secondary connections are accessible and changeable. I am not currently having any starting problems, but I am concerne that I may if I change the transformer to delta-wye. As mentioned, it sure would be nice to get away from the transformer all together. A lot of you guys are good with VFD's, any comments on utilizing the DC conversion capabilities of one of those somehow as I alluded to above? . Off the shelf DC-Dc converters that operate around 400V are not generally available.
 
In general, as you increase the voltage applied to the transformer, the magnetizing current will increase. Similarly, as you _reduce_ the applied frequency, the magnetizing current will increase. The net result is that if you operate at 'constant V/Hz' you will find roughly constant magnetizing current. If you increase the voltage applied to the coils, you will increase the magnetizing current, and if the voltage gets high enough, you will saturate the core and your magnetizing current will climb rapidly.

If you change the primary configuration from wye to delta, you are effectively placing 1.73x the voltage across each of the transformer's coils. The 'external' voltage remains the same, but the voltage across the individual coils has changed... probably pushing the transformer into saturation and tremendously increasing magnetizing current.


-Jon

So In brief summary, If I dont find a non-transformer option, I have two basic options it seems. One is to modify the existing one. Due to the startup and low fequency issues, it would seem that for best performance I would want to add turns to the secondary and/or change the secondary to wye and NOT unwind the primary (or change to delta). Just doing the secondary to wye would only get me X1.73 more which is not quite enough. Also there can be circulating current problems with wye-wye connections I hear. Second route would be buying a new transformer and "derating" it for the low frequency. I would have to take some measurement to find out what the frequency is at cut-in. I think it may be around 20HZ. Maybe I could get a 3KVA transformer with a 600 V primary and 208 secondary. That may work acceptably.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
140201-1618 EST

The original post by electrofelon presents an interesting problem. I have not read all the posts. Some are of some value, and others illustrate a total lack of understanding of electrical theory.

electrofelon I suggest you probably don't want to use a base frequency transformer (meaning low frequency). I think you want to design some sort of electronic switching power suipply to provide maximum power transfer to the battery. Besoeker is probably the best person for such a duiiscussion.


Some broad background.

Definition of magnetizing current.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/magnetizing current
http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/magnetizing+current

The McGraw-Hill reference includes losses in the magnetizing current. I think they should be separate, but in the real world the easy measurement includes both losses and stored energy in the magnetic field.

Now to some basics.

Start with a copper coil with the core being air. At DC or very low frequencies the instantaneous current is basically i = v/R. As frequency is increased the current will drop for a constant voltage amplitude. Under transient or steady state conditions the current will never be greater than the DC value. i^2*R loss will never be greater than at DC excluding secondary effects.

Now add a ferromagnetic core to the coil. The above paragraph still applies. The feromagnetic core greatly increases the magnetic flux density for a given input current. In other words less current is required to produce a given flux density. Thus, the inductance of the coil is greater with the ferromagnetic core than with just an air core.

However, the ferromagnetic material does not have a linear characteristic as flux density changes. If you could fully saturate the ferromagnetic core then the coil would approach the characteristics of an air core coil.

If a transformer is made larger (more turns and more core) to prevent major saturation at some low frequency, then the transformer will have imparied performance at higher frequencies and power levels.

In a transformer designed for power transfer the core material, on a steady state basis, will be driven somewhat into core saturation. This causes a peaking in the excitation current at each voltage zero crossing.

Any inductor, real or ideal, under transient conditions will oppose any instantaneous change in the current thru the inductor. Thus, if an inductor has an initial condition of zero current in the inductor's coil and a battery is connected to the coil at t=0, then just after t=0 the current is still zero. If there is no magnetic core material, then the current will change and gradually become the the steady state current. There is no overshoot type of peaking.

If there is a ferromagnetic core, then the initial state of the flux in the core becomes important in combination with the turn on point in the applied AC voltage. If this turn on point causes the flux to further increase, then a large inrush currrent pulse will occur because this forces the core more into saturation. Major rebalancing of the flux occurs in 1/2 cycle, but many cycles are required to reach steady state conditions.

This large inrush current results from the coil looking more like an air core coil, than like a coil with an unsaturated ferromagnetic core.

Switching power supplies take input energy and put this into an inductor and in some fashion control that inductor to output the desired voltage, current, and waveform.

.
 
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