transformer magnetizing current

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This seems like a straightforward question but all I could find was super technical explanations that didnt really answer my question. Please discuss magnetizing current: What design parameters effect it and how it could be lowered for a given step down ratio.
 

jim dungar

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Normal winding issues such as turns ratios and wye or delta connections have little impact on the inrush current of a transformer.

Magnetizing current is a function of the design of the transformer. It is affected by things like the physical dimensions and characteristics of the of the windings, the type of steel used in the core, the construction of the core. It is not surprising all the information you have found is 'super technical'.

If you have specific magnetizing current considerations, you will need to a have a special transformer designed and constructed for you.
 

iceworm

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Yes, not something we generally have to consider, but I have an application where I need the magnetizing current to be as low as possible. Also, how does the primary winding configuration in a three phase transformer effect this value.

ef -
First: I can't help with methods to lower magnetizing current. Transformer design is not in my area of expertise.

Do you mean magnetizing current? Steady state current, pure inductive, lagging current present after inrush.

Or are you concerned with the inrush current?

I'm sure you meant what you said, but this would be the first time where the magnetizing current was a consideration. Is this application something you can talk about? Cause that sounds interesting.

ice
 
Normal winding issues such as turns ratios and wye or delta connections have little impact on the inrush current of a transformer.

Say I have a wye primary delta secondary and I change it to a delta delta, or a delta wye. It was my impression that these three cases would have different magnetizing current. You do not think that is the case?

First: I can't help with methods to lower magnetizing current. Transformer design is not in my area of expertise.

Do you mean magnetizing current? Steady state current, pure inductive, lagging current present after inrush.

Or are you concerned with the inrush current?

I'm sure you meant what you said, but this would be the first time where the magnetizing current was a consideration. Is this application something you can talk about? Cause that sounds interesting.

magnetizing current and inrush current are different? Perhaps thats a good place to start :) The application is a wind turbine. I was talking to some folks on a RE forum I am also on and it seems my existing transformer may not work well for my system redesign where I am increasing battery voltage from 12 to 24. Thought I would post the problem here too as there are some real good theory people here. It puts out three phase AC, variable frequency at 240V nominal (have seen up to 300), 1 KW max. Currently the voltage is stepped down to 12 volts by a wye-delta transformer, then runs thru a three phase bridge rectifier, then to a 12v battery bank. The battery bank will be upgraded to 24V so the current setup will not work. In addition, there is a new maximum power point tracking controller that I would like to incorporate and it can take up to 250VDC input so I really need to at least halve the voltage from the turbine (dont forget the 136% voltage increase from the bridge rectifier). The controller can buck the incoming voltage but not boost. I had the idea to change the primary to delta and the secondary to wye which would give me a 1.73 squared decrease in reduction ratio thus getting me over my battery voltage. It was mentioned that this would increase the magnetizing current which is an issue for a wind turbine because it can have trouble starting connected to a transformer due to the low frequency at cut in. So I was wondering if anyone had any ideas about perhaps unwinding or rewinding the transformer or how I can "derate" one to make it operate with a low magnetizing current. There you go, that should be the most out there problem of the week.
 

Sahib

Senior Member
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The problem, IMO, is not due to high magnetising current but due to power loss in the wires and due to low frequency at cut-in, the turbine not able to develop sufficient power. So changing the wire size to reduce the voltage drop and hence power loss at cut-in solves the issue?
 

Jraef

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I'll take a stab at a non-math based explanation.

Think about what a transformer is, I'm going to use a single phase simple AC core and coil transformer we all use every day. If you took one apart to sell for scrap, you would find it is essentially just two long pieces of wire wrapped in a coil around a piece of steel. How it transforms from one voltage to another is based upon the phenomenon called "induction" which says that if you move a magnetic field across a conductor, it causes current to flow in the conductor. So the transformer, in it's steady state, creates electro-magnetic fields that form around one coil that permeate the steel and make it into a magnet. As the AC current rises and falls, the magnetic flux of the magnet is rising and falling too, so then creating current flow in the other wire coil, which is wrapped around the same steel core. That voltage will be lower or higher than the original one by the ratio of how many times the coils are wrapped around that magnet in relation to each other, called the "turns ratio".

But that is at the STEADY state, and at some point, you must START this process. If you look at the circuit, other than the fact that it is coiled, the wire is just a wire; it is in essence a "short circuit". Once the magnetic fields are created and begin interacting with each other, the current flow in both sides "impedes" the flow of current in the other through a process called "mutual induction". In works kind of like this: Coil A has current flowing, that creates magnetic flux in the steel, which induces current to flow in coil B, which ALSO induces magnetism in the steel, which then opposes the flow of current in coil A, which limits the current in coil B etc. etc. etc. Everyone is happy.

But for a BRIEF moment, BEFORE the flow of current in coil A creates magnetic flux in the steel so that current in B can oppose it, there is NO impedance to the flow of current through coil A, it really IS a "short circuit" for that instant, where the current flow is slowed down ONLY by the natural resistance in the wire itself. The magnitude of that current, which can be anywhere from 1000-2000% of the steady state maximum current, is called the "magnetizing current". It only lasts as long as it takes for the steel to become magnetized and depending on the design, can range from anything between a few cycles (at 60Hz, a cycle is 16.7ms) and a minute, but most fall into that 1-3 cycle range.
 

GoldDigger

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Very close, but does not the coil and core also act as an inductor (as long as current is not allowed to flow in the secondary winding)?
There will also be a small amount of incidental capacitance, as well as other effects resulting from hysteresis in the core material.
The actual instantaneous current will depend on the phase of the applied voltage when the switch is closed.

Tapatalk!
 
The problem, IMO, is not due to high magnetising current but due to power loss in the wires and due to low frequency at cut-in, the turbine not able to develop sufficient power. So changing the wire size to reduce the voltage drop and hence power loss at cut-in solves the issue?

You are correct that that is a potential issue as well. There are two major concerns with connecting a wind turbine to a transformer. One is the one I was mentioning - the turbine "seeing" the transformer as a short at start up. This can be overcome with a relay that disconnects the turbine from the transformer below cut in or below where it creates any meaningful power. The other is what you mention - the very low frequency of the turbine at low speeds. The low frequency will cause core saturation and very inefficient operation until the RPM get up close to the range of what the transformer is designed for. From what I hear, and I think this is sound science, is you can "derate" a transformer for lower frequency operation by picking one that has a higher voltage rating. For example if you want a transformer to work well at 30 hz at 240 V, get a 480 60 hz unit but you can only use half the KVA. Is that correct?

Jraef,

Thanks for the great explanation. I was never clear on what exactly caused the impedance to change after the first few cycles. Mutual inductance is a handy phenomenon, glad its around. So basically the magnetizing current is just determined by the wire resistance?
 

GoldDigger

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Jraef: And as I understand it, the current induced in coil B will oppose the magnetic field created by the current in coil A. That in turn allows corresponding additional current to flow in A without saturating the core.
In the absence of current in B, mutual induction becomes just plain ordinary induction.
There can still be surge current, just as with any inductor.

Tapatalk!
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
magnetizing current and inrush current are different?
Yes. By orders of magnitude.

Perhaps thats a good place to start :) The application is a wind turbine. I was talking to some folks on a RE forum I am also on and it seems my existing transformer may not work well for my system redesign where I am increasing battery voltage from 12 to 24. Thought I would post the problem here too as there are some real good theory people here. It puts out three phase AC, variable frequency at 240V nominal (have seen up to 300), 1 KW max. Currently the voltage is stepped down to 12 volts by a wye-delta transformer, then runs thru a three phase bridge rectifier,
B6U or B6C?


I had the idea to change the primary to delta and the secondary to wye which would give me a 1.73 squared decrease in reduction ratio thus getting me over my battery voltage. It was mentioned that this would increase the magnetizing current which is an issue for a wind turbine because it can have trouble starting connected to a transformer due to the low frequency at cut in. So I was wondering if anyone had any ideas about perhaps unwinding or rewinding the transformer or how I can "derate" one to make it operate with a low magnetizing current. There you go, that should be the most out there problem of the week.

At around 1kVA buy the right transformer for the job rather than faffing around.
 

Sahib

Senior Member
Location
India
You are correct that that is a potential issue as well. There are two major concerns with connecting a wind turbine to a transformer. One is the one I was mentioning - the turbine "seeing" the transformer as a short at start up. This can be overcome with a relay that disconnects the turbine from the transformer below cut in or below where it creates any meaningful power. The other is what you mention - the very low frequency of the turbine at low speeds. The low frequency will cause core saturation and very inefficient operation until the RPM get up close to the range of what the transformer is designed for. From what I hear, and I think this is sound science, is you can "derate" a transformer for lower frequency operation by picking one that has a higher voltage rating. For example if you want a transformer to work well at 30 hz at 240 V, get a 480 60 hz unit but you can only use half the KVA. Is that correct?

You are correct. But before proceeding with it, is it not possible to increase the cut in frequency ( thereby getting an increased power output from the wind turbine to cater to the initial current inrush) to see it could really solve your problem?
 
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jim dungar

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PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Say I have a wye primary delta secondary and I change it to a delta delta, or a delta wye. It was my impression that these three cases would have different magnetizing current. You do not think that is the case?

It is the physical construction of the transformer that impacts the inrush and magnetizing current. The only one that can change them significantly is the manufacturer.

Sure, for a given transformer, if you could physically reconnect the windings you would be able to change the inrush and magnetizing currents slightly. However standard 3-phase transformers are not usually field re-connectable.
 
Yes. By orders of magnitude.
going to keep it a secret?


B6U or B6C?

not sure what that means, different diode configuration I assume. I built the thing though so I could probably tell you with some more details.



At around 1kVA buy the right transformer for the job rather than faffing around.

Right, how could I be so silly. Ill call up the supply house and order a 10 HZ transformer or commission one to be made
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
It is the physical construction of the transformer that impacts the inrush and magnetizing current. The only one that can change them significantly is the manufacturer.

Sure, for a given transformer, if you could physically reconnect the windings you would be able to change the inrush and magnetizing currents slightly. However standard 3-phase transformers are not usually field re-connectable.
Some input resistors with a shorting contactor would be a simple solution.
 
You are correct. But before proceeding with it, is it not possible to increase the cut in frequency ( thereby getting an increased power output from the wind turbine to cater to the initial current inrush) to see it could really solve your problem?

Well yes, I could make a cut in relay as I discussed that would open circuit the turbine below a certain wind speed, maybe 5 mph, not much energy in 5 mph.

At around 1kVA buy the right transformer for the job rather than faffing around.

do you think the frequency derating routine I mentioned is valid? Feel free to comment on any thought/opinions on the best off the shelf transformer considering the low initial frequency
 

Sahib

Senior Member
Location
India
Well yes, I could make a cut in relay as I discussed that would open circuit the turbine below a certain wind speed, maybe 5 mph, not much energy in 5 mph.
But actually try to make the relay close above a certain wind speed so that the turbine supplies sufficient energy for the losses due to initial current inrush. Of course this reduces the energy harvest from the wind.
Feel free to comment on any thought/opinions on the best off the shelf transformer considering the low initial frequency
But it does not solve the initial inrush current problem, IMO.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
going to keep it a secret?
No secret. Inrush can be upwards of ten times rated current for a short period.
The magnetising component of operating current is usually a small fraction of rated current.

not sure what that means, different diode configuration I assume. I built the thing though so I could probably tell you with some more details.
B6 means six pulse. The usual arrangement for a three phase bridge. The U means uncontrolled i.e. plain rectifier diodes. The C means controlled as in silicon controlled rectifier aka SCR.

Ill call up the supply house and order a 10 HZ transformer or commission one to be made
You could if you absolutely must have 10Hz. Other approaches would be using a 60Hz transformer and operating it at 10/60 of it's design input voltage. It would be pretty big.
Better might be to use a converter/inverter arrangement to get 60Hz from your 10Hz.
 
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