100 amp breaker in 200 amp panel

[mlnk]

As part of a remodel job, a 200 amp service box was installed on my house. POCO says I am allowed to have only a 100 amp service because their transformer can only serve so many houses with 100 amp services. I want to remove the 200 amp breaker and install a 100 amp breaker. My total load is about 70 amps. POCO says they will not hook it up. They want a 100 amp box (which, incidentally, is actually rated 125 amps) How do I convince them to let me use the 100 amp breaker in the bigger box? Note: They will allow the 200 amp box if I pay them $3000 to install a bigger step down transformer.

 

[iwire]

I might put in a 100 amp meter main outside to make them happy and keep the 200 amp panel inside.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Backfeed and remove the 200 AMP?

 

[kwired]

As part of a remodel job, a 200 amp service box was installed on my house. POCO says I am allowed to have only a 100 amp service because their transformer can only serve so many houses with 100 amp services. I want to remove the 200 amp breaker and install a 100 amp breaker. My total load is about 70 amps. POCO says they will not hook it up. They want a 100 amp box (which, incidentally, is actually rated 125 amps) How do I convince them to let me use the 100 amp breaker in the bigger box? Note: They will allow the 200 amp box if I pay them $3000 to install a bigger step down transformer.

POCO people are idiots in your case:happyyes:

I can understand what they are saying, but only to a certain extent, the reality for them is total connected load not total of overcurrent devices connected to it. I bet they even have transformers that supply individual services that are smaller than the actual capacity of the service overcurrent device(s) being supplied, they have sized the transformer to actual load conditions, and will even overload said transformer to some extent before going with a larger transformer.

I can understand wanting to charge for a larger transformer if it is needed, but $3k is kind of steep - especially if it serves multiple customers. And it is not like they will be left with a transformer they can not use somewhere else in most instances.

The POCO guy in this case just wants to prove he has the power to make such decisions IMO.

 

[growler]

As part of a remodel job, a 200 amp service box was installed on my house. POCO says I am allowed to have only a 100 amp service because their transformer can only serve so many houses with 100 amp services. I want to remove the 200 amp breaker and install a 100 amp breaker. My total load is about 70 amps. POCO says they will not hook it up. They want a 100 amp box (which, incidentally, is actually rated 125 amps) How do I convince them to let me use the 100 amp breaker in the bigger box? Note: They will allow the 200 amp box if I pay them $3000 to install a bigger step down transformer.

POCO people are idiots in your case:happyyes:

The POCO guy in this case just wants to prove he has the power to make such decisions IMO.

It is possible that the POCO guys are idiiots.

I would think that the real problem here is paperwork. To up-grade from a 100 AMP service to a 200 AMP service would normally require a permit and inspection. Once the new service is inspected and the paperwork sent to the POCO for re-connect it is now shown as a 200 AMP service. If the power company re-connects the service they are now accepting things as they are.

If he can get the permit changed to show that it is now a 100 AMP service and that it has been inspected and approved as a 100 AMP service then the power company shouldn't have a choice about the re-connect.

When up-gradeing a service it is a good idea to check with the power company and make sure there are going to be no problems before starting the project.

 

[kwired]

It is possible that the POCO guys are idiiots.

I would think that the real problem here is paperwork. To up-grade from a 100 AMP service to a 200 AMP service would normally require a permit and inspection. Once the new service is inspected and the paperwork sent to the POCO for re-connect it is now shown as a 200 AMP service. If the power company re-connects the service they are now accepting things as they are.

If he can get the permit changed to show that it is now a 100 AMP service and that it has been inspected and approved as a 100 AMP service then the power company shouldn't have a choice about the re-connect.

When up-gradeing a service it is a good idea to check with the power company and make sure there are going to be no problems before starting the project.

Somewhat understandable, but many POCO will not change conductors or transformers just because someone upgraded from 100 to 200 amps service disconnect at a typical dwelling. They will be asking what load was added, if nothing significant they just reconnect to what they already have in place majority of the time. From most POCO perspectives, why spend money on a 37.5 kVA transformer when a 25 will deliver what is needed pretty reliably and is only overloaded on occasion? They have their own calculation methods for determining how much overload it can take and for how long, and are not as concerned about effects of heating it may produce as compared to when we install a transformer inside a building - it is out in the open and is not as likely to start the structure on fire as one located inside possibly is.

I have seen many 200 amp services supplied by 2 AWG or even 4 AWG aluminum service drop conductors, have other services on the same transformer, and usually is only a 25 kVA transformer, if there is some heavy load maybe you will see a 37.5 kVA. It all depends on what the actual load is to know what they can get by with.

 

[growler]

Somewhat understandable, but many POCO will not change conductors or transformers just because someone upgraded from 100 to 200 amps service disconnect at a typical dwelling. They will be asking what load was added, if nothing significant they just reconnect to what they already have in place majority of the time. From most POCO perspectives, why spend money on a 37.5 kVA transformer when a 25 will deliver what is needed pretty reliably and is only overloaded on occasion? They have their own calculation methods for determining how much overload it can take and for how long, and are not as concerned about effects of heating it may produce as compared to when we install a transformer inside a building

Kwired I fully agree with you and I know that it's probably not going to cause a problem.

The power companies that I normally deal with are great to work with ( not going to mention any names) but if I go into an area where I'm not familiar with their operating proceedure I would check before up-grading a service just to make sure of any additional cost or problems.

What I was getting at is that the power company does not have to reconnect until they have an inspection of the correct size service.

I don't know who the OP has been dealing with at the power company. I would call the engineer for that particular area and explain my situation to him/her and see what could be worked out.

 

[kwired]

What I was getting at is that the power company does not have to reconnect until they have an inspection of the correct size service.

I guess it can depend on how things work in the area. It doesn't exactly work quite that way around here. They will not connect a new service without a permit, but inspection doesn't have to happen before connection is allowed in general. Temporary services and mobile homes are supposed to have inspector's permission before they energize, most anything else is generally energized as long as they receive notification that there was a permit filed (AHJ notifies POCO mentioned on the permit application of all new service permits, if you want to delay things easy way is to put down the wrong POCO on the application).

Apparently they trust the contractors enough in this state to not make too serious of a hazard before an inspector would come to look at the installation. Nobody else is getting a permit besides a licensed contractor, and homeowners working on their primary residence - the rules are the same for them, but they are going to be watched a little closer by the inspectors than the contractors are, and trust me, in general the inspectors absolutely hate when they have owner requested permits.

 

[mbrooke]

Service size has nothing to do with it. Where new loads added?

One could legally have a 600 amp service, if its only holding 30amps max poco could stick a 10kva can, feed it with #8 AL triplex and it would be compliant for them as well as the NEC.


I have seen up to 10 all gas 200amp houses on a 25kva pole pig or pad mount. 2 to 4 houses on a 50kva if all electric heat.


Poco engineers never calc by the service size.

 

[kwired]

Service size has nothing to do with it. Where new loads added?

One could legally have a 600 amp service, if its only holding 30amps max poco could stick a 10kva can, feed it with #8 AL triplex and it would be compliant for them as well as the NEC.


I have seen up to 10 all gas 200amp houses on a 25kva pole pig or pad mount. 2 to 4 houses on a 50kva if all electric heat.


Poco engineers never calc by the service size.

I agree, but apparently not the OP's POCO.

 

[growler]

What I was getting at is that the power company does not have to reconnect until they have an inspection of the correct size service.

I guess it can depend on how things work in the area. It doesn't exactly work quite that way around here. They will not connect a new service without a permit, but inspection doesn't have to happen before connection is allowed in general. Temporary services and mobile homes are supposed to have inspector's permission before they energize, most anything else is generally energized as long as they receive notification that there was a permit filed (AHJ notifies POCO mentioned on the permit application of all new service permits, if you want to delay things easy way is to put down the wrong POCO on the application).

This is a good example of how things can work different in other areas.

Here an inspection will have to be performed and paperwork sent to the power company before they will reconnect a service up-grade.

One problem that I have had in the past ( hope it's been corrected ) is that the paper work is entered into a computer at the power company. If there are any mistakes or the information is not entered correctly the computer will not issue a work order or generate the correct order to have a service reconnected.

 

[kwired]

This is a good example of how things can work different in other areas.

Here an inspection will have to be performed and paperwork sent to the power company before they will reconnect a service up-grade.

One problem that I have had in the past ( hope it's been corrected ) is that the paper work is entered into a computer at the power company. If there are any mistakes or the information is not entered correctly the computer will not issue a work order or generate the correct order to have a service reconnected.

I guess if that were the rule here things would be different, but as it is now, most of my inspections are weeks or even months after the work was done, higher priority goes to rough in inspections as those are what holds up progress, and by law the inspector has 5 working days to get to a rough in inspection request, if he can not make it, he will tell you it is ok to cover it. They generally try to make it to those contractors they have regular issues with or to homeowners doing their own work, and the contractors they have little issues with are the first ones to be told to go ahead and cover because they can not make it in time. This doesn't mean they can't find issues later, they just can't make you remove drywall, other coverings for the sole purpose of doing a rough inspection later.

 

[electricguy61]

I've had the same problem as the OP with PG&E, even when I changed the main breaker to 100amp. Their SOP's are that if you have a 100 amp service from them, it must feed a 100 amp panel (or 125 amp). Based on the fact that after the job is inspected and the meter set, you could pull the meter and re-install the 200 amp main breaker.

And I'm sure some folks have done just that. A few ruin it for everyone :thumbsdown:

 

[kwired]

I've had the same problem as the OP with PG&E, even when I changed the main breaker to 100amp. Their SOP's are that if you have a 100 amp service from them, it must feed a 100 amp panel (or 125 amp). Based on the fact that after the job is inspected and the meter set, you could pull the meter and re-install the 200 amp main breaker.

And I'm sure some folks have done just that. A few ruin it for everyone :thumbsdown:

I honestly don't see why they should care if the load isn't there. To most POCO most average homes likely have a set amount of demand they generally use as a base, then they factor in electric heat or water heating or other major loads if they exist. If the house is really large, they may consider a larger base usage. Depending on the metering used they may also be able to determine what kind of demand is there even if they don't use that data for billing it may still be available with many smart meters.

 

[njelectrician]

I've never heard of this before.. transformers are always based on load.. and with today's NEC requirements for separate circuits, most homes with additions will need an upgraded service. Will they pass the job if you backfeed the panel with a 100 amp breaker and leave no wire on the 200 amp main? i would try that and than just return the breaker after they leave and put the wire on the 200 amp.. the load off the meter probably wont fit without switching it out too. its ridiculous either way. other idea would be to cut the whole block a discount on 200 amp services and see who bites. maybe if its more than one house they will be willing to switch out the trans...

 

[kbsparky]

Replace the 200 Amp breaker with a 100 Amp breaker.

Same equipment.

No brainer.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81jynjyVm6L._SL1500_.jpg

 

[kwired]

I've never heard of this before.. transformers are always based on load.. and with today's NEC requirements for separate circuits, most homes with additions will need an upgraded service. Will they pass the job if you backfeed the panel with a 100 amp breaker and leave no wire on the 200 amp main? i would try that and than just return the breaker after they leave and put the wire on the 200 amp.. the load off the meter probably wont fit without switching it out too. its ridiculous either way. other idea would be to cut the whole block a discount on 200 amp services and see who bites. maybe if its more than one house they will be willing to switch out the trans...

Transformers are based on load, and often are designed to be overloaded to some extent as well. 25 KVA is 104 amps @ 240 volts. It is not all that hard to load a 25 kVA transformer supplying 4 or 5 homes to 104+ amps, but is done quite often. They are also betting on the fact it will not be continuously loaded to those kind of levels for very long at a time. Again if they know a particular customer has electric heat, or other heavier load, they do take that into consideration and may increase the transformer size because of that.

If POCO's are that concerned about knowing you have a 200 amp main instead of a 100 amp main, they are also likely pretty particular about broken/missing meter seals, so changing something after the fact is not all that easy to do either without leaving some kind of evidence of tampering.

 

[JDBrown]

Maybe it's just the conspiracy theorist in me, but I find myself wondering if the POCO knows the transformer feeding the OP's house is close to its maximum capacity, and they're trying to bully him into buying them a new one. I certainly hope that's not the case, but sometimes I just wonder...

 

[growler]

Their SOP's are that if you have a 100 amp service from them, it must feed a 100 amp panel (or 125 amp).

Most large corporations have SOP's. That' Standard Operating Procedure.
These are rules (usually written) that they use to operate their business.

This may not alway work out the best for their customers but the company usually thinks there is a certain benefit to them.

I'm agreeing with you electric guy. It's probably just SOP and they are not overly concerned about load, calulated or otherwise.

 

[meternerd]

Like was said above....we (POCO) will not connect a 100A service to a 200A panel even if it has a 100A main. For the obvious reason that if the customer pays fees for a 100A service, then as soon as we leave goes back and replaces the main to 200A, he gets a nice discount. Also, if the service drop is sized for 100A, the wire may not be able to handle 200A worth of load. Changing a main hot is a BAD idea, since the service is unprotected except for the transformer fuse when you are ahead of the main. Also, as stated above, pulling the meter means cutting the seal. Another bad idea. Many utilities always size service drops for 200A and charge fees based on 200A or less. But not all. Not idiots, but not very trusting either. You know the old saying...."Trust but verify".