15 amp circiuts

[roger]

Charlie

What I am asking is: 15 AMP circuit starts at the panel 'breaks' at the switch box then to the disposal, like the old days. What do you call the box where the switch is located. I used the term switch outlet and was told that I am wrong so what is it called.

It's simply an opening to install a switch like a "Junction Box", if it makes you feel better call it a "Switch Box "

PS to those who think that I am wrong 100 only defines terms used in more than one Article.
"only those terms that are used in two or more
articles are defined in Article 100."

And what is your point? If you think the term "Switch Outlet" is used in somewhere in one article show us where it is.

Roger

 

[jxofaltrds]

It's simply an opening to install a switch like a "Junction Box", if it makes you feel better call it a "Switch Box "

And what is your point? If you think the term "Switch Outlet" is used in somewhere in one article show us where it is.

Roger

My point is why can't I call it a switch outlet? Why am I wrong for identifying what box that I am talking about?

EDIT: So it is not an outlet in my example. Correct?

 

[roger]

My point is why can't I call it a switch outlet?

You can as long as you understand it is not technically correct and can not be used as a reason to change the intent of 210.21(B)(3)

Why am I wrong for identifying what box that I am talking about?

The problem is that when you are talking code specifics proper terminology is a must, using slang or loose terms is fine until it comes time to cite a code violation or requirement.

Roger

 

[jxofaltrds]

You can as long as you understand it is not technically correct and can not be used as a reason to change the intent of 210.21(B)(3) The problem is that when you are talking code specifics proper terminology is a must, using slang or loose terms is fine until it comes time to cite a code violation or requirement.

Roger

What makes it incorrect technically?

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is
taken to supply utilization equipment.

That point is the terminal on a switch. Current is not taken to the switch until it is turned 'on'.

It doesn't matter if my switch has a light or not. Current is taken to the disposal from the load side of the switch.

If my switch is lighted does it meet:
Utilization Equipment. Equipment that utilizes electric energy
for electronic, electromechanical, chemical, heating,
lighting, or similar purposes.?

Is a disconnect for an AC not an outlet? It's a glorified switch in most cases.

 

[GoldDigger]

IMHO the switch terminal is not an outlet because the power still has not left the building wiring system.
Would you consider every junction box and breaker to be an outlet too?

Tapatalk!

 

[infinity]

Are we really saying that a switch is by NEC definition an outlet?

 

[jxofaltrds]

IMHO the switch terminal is not an outlet because the power still has not left the building wiring system.
Would you consider every junction box and breaker to be an outlet too?

Tapatalk!

Every junction box? Yes, IF the wire is not continuous. Breaker? No.

Are we really saying that a switch is by NEC definition an outlet?

That's what I am asking. A receptacle does nothing until it is used. Isn't a switch the same?

They both are:

Device. A unit of an electrical system that carries or controls
electric energy as its principal function.

 

[infinity]

A switch, unless it's lighted, does not take current it merely passes it along.

Article 100
Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is
taken to supply utilization equipment.

 

[jxofaltrds]

A switch, unless it's lighted, does not take current it merely passes it along.

As does a receptacle.

 

[roger]

Mike, This is one of two things.

It is either another issue that is above your level of understanding or, you really are trolling and mocking the members that try to have real conversations and discussions.

In either case you are not helping those trying to learn and in fact you are hurting your credibility


Roger

 

[jxofaltrds]

Mike, This is one of two things.

It is either another issue that is above your level of understanding or, you really are trolling and mocking the members that try to have real conversations and discussions.

In either case you are not helping those trying to learn and in fact you are hurting your credibility


Roger

I guess it must be above me.

 

[GoldDigger]

As does a receptacle.

But the receptacle delivers power directly to the wiring of the utilization equipment, locating the mythical outlet "point" at the surface of the receptacle contacts.
Now if you hardwire a load directly to the switch terminals, using the wire supplied with the load, then you would have an outlet at the switch terminals. That is why I suggested that in the case of an appliance or light whip there might be an argument as to which end had the outlet designation.

 

[augie47]

Mike,
For conversations sake, install a switch connected to nothing... the load side dead ends into two wirenuts.
Put a ammeter (milliamp..what ever) in the circuit. No matter what you or the end user does to that switch you there will be no flow of power.
It may later pass current onto an outlet, but there is no current taken from the circuit at THAT POINT.
Install a receptacle.. if someone plugs something into that receptacle..current will show on the meter... there is flow of power... it's an outlet..it is THE POINT where current is taken .
Hook up a smoke detector to that circuit... the meter will show a miniscule flow of power... the box is an outlet.. power is utilized from that box..it is THE POINT where current is taken from the circuit.

Help ?

 

[jxofaltrds]

Mike,
For conversations sake, install a switch connected to nothing... the load side dead ends into two wirenuts.
Put a ammeter (milliamp..what ever) in the circuit. No matter what you or the end user does to that switch you there will be no flow of power.
It may later pass current onto an outlet, but there is no current taken from the circuit at THAT POINT.
Install a receptacle.. if someone plugs something into that receptacle..current will show on the meter... there is flow of power... it's an outlet..it is THE POINT where current is taken .
Hook up a smoke detector to that circuit... the meter will show a miniscule flow of power... the box is an outlet.. power is utilized from that box..it is THE POINT where current is taken from the circuit.

Help ?

TY for humoring me.

Receptacle. A receptacle is a contact device installed at the
outlet for the connection of an attachment plug. A single
receptacle is a single contact device with no other contact
device on the same yoke. A multiple receptacle is two or
more contact devices on the same yoke.

It is a device not the outlet by definition.
(I could call a plug an outlet but let's go there some other time)(the point is 'when' they touch)

Device. A unit of an electrical system that carries or controls
electric energy as its principal function.

A switch is a device that "controls electric energy".

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is
taken to supply utilization equipment.
This point could be at a receptacle, at the smoke detector, at a switch, at a light, at a dishwasher, at a furnace, at a disposal, at a disconnect for an AC.

 

[infinity]

This is from the 2014 ROP, if a switch were an outlet then this change (2-85) would not be needed, the second proposal references the first:

2-85 Log #685 NEC-P02 Final Action: Accept
(210.12(A))
________________________________________________________________
Submitter: Robert A. Jones, IEC Texas Gulf Coast
Recommendation: Revise text to read as follows:
All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying
outlets or devices installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living
rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets,
hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc-fault
circuit interrupter, combination-type, installed to provide protection of the
branch circuit.
Substantiation: There are situations where a light switch is installed in a
bedroom to control an exterior light. The branch circuit supplying the exterior
lighting outlet is not supplying an outlet in the bedroom, therefore, the
conductors installed from the switch to the exterior light would not require
AFCI protection.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept
The panel understands that this action to add the words ?or devices? is in
addition to the action taken on Proposal 2-92.
Number Eligible to Vote: 11
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 9 Negative: 2
Explanation of Negative:
DUREN, R.: The substantiation does not provide sufficient technical
evidence to warrant the expansion of AFCI protection.

2-97 Log #2732 NEC-P02 Final Action: Reject
(210.12(A) Exception (New) )
________________________________________________________________
Submitter: Robert Meier, Norwood, NJ
Recommendation: Add text to read as follows:
210.12(A) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere
branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining
rooms, living room, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation
rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a
listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination-type, installed to provide
protection of the branch circuit.
Exception: Lighted switches are not required to comply with this section.
Substantiation: A lighted switch, by definition in Article 100 is an outlet.
Being such, and when installed in one the areas requiring AFCI protection, the
switch itself would require AFCI protection even if it were controlling
something in an area that does not require AFCI protection. For example a
lighted switch in a dwelling bedroom would require AFCI protection even if it
controlled a portion of as circuit that does not require AFCI protection such as
an outdoor light. By adding this exception it will clarify that this switch,
although an outlet by definition, does not require AFCI protection,
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The panel has included ?devices? in the requirement which
will clear up confusion regarding lighted switches.
See the panel action and statement on Proposal 2-85.

 

[augie47]

Mike:
Call a switch what ever you wish. I personally feel it is clear to everyone else from all the posts that the NEC does not consider a switch an outlet. My post, as with many others IMO, was added simply to lessen confusion to others reading the thread.
IMO, you would die before conceding the point..so be it.
The casual reader can at least make up his mind if Mike is out of step or the rest of the Code world is

 

[jxofaltrds]

This is from the 2014 ROP, if a switch were an outlet then this change (2-85) would not be needed, the second proposal references the first:

Exactly what I have been saying.

All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying
outlets or devices installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living
rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets,
hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc-fault
circuit interrupter, combination-type, installed to provide protection of the
branch circuit.

That would require an AFCI in my exception post.

Receptacles and switches are devices.

I think the code wanted devices included but did not say so and I can not force a contractor to do something that is not in the code.

 

[roger]

Exactly what I have been saying.

No it's not.

Receptacles and switches are devices.

Read the ROP again, receptacles are not in question, they are already defined as "Receptacle Outlets".


Roger

 

[david luchini]

TY for humoring me.

Receptacle. A receptacle is a contact device installed at the
outlet for the connection of an attachment plug. A single
receptacle is a single contact device with no other contact
device on the same yoke. A multiple receptacle is two or
more contact devices on the same yoke.

It is a device not the outlet by definition.
(I could call a plug an outlet but let's go there some other time)(the point is 'when' they touch)

Device. A unit of an electrical system that carries or controls
electric energy as its principal function.

A switch is a device that "controls electric energy".

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is
taken to supply utilization equipment.
This point could be at a receptacle, at the smoke detector, at a switch, at a light, at a dishwasher, at a furnace, at a disposal, at a disconnect for an AC.

Nothing in the definition of an "outlet" says anything about a "device." It talks about "utilization equipment" which is equipment that utilizes electric energy for electronic, electromechanical, chemical, heating, lighting or similar purposes. In your list, the smoke detector, the light, the dishwasher, the furnace, the disposal and the AC unit are all "utilization equipment." The "switch" is NOT utilization equipment.

Of course, the receptacle is not "utilization equipment" either, it is only a contact device that provides a means for connecting utilization equipment to the wiring system. But that is why the Code gives us the specific definition of "Receptacle Outlet" - an outlet where one or more receptacles are installed. There is no similar definition for "switch outlet."

 

[jxofaltrds]

Mike:
Call a switch what ever you wish. I personally feel it is clear to everyone else from all the posts that the NEC does not consider a switch an outlet. My post, as with many others IMO, was added simply to lessen confusion to others reading the thread.
IMO, you would die before conceding the point..so be it.
The casual reader can at least make up his mind if Mike is out of step or the rest of the Code world is

I'm always out of step.

Why was there such a big fuss over smokes when AFCIs came out? We all decided that it was an outlet even though smoke outlets are not in the code.

Why the need to add devices as I have been screaming!

I'll try not to walk so fast in the future.