15 amp circiuts

[roger]

I know you guys know what an outlet is but:

Yes we do and a switch is not an outlet, it is a device and the NEC makes that clear.


The NEC took pains to specifically define what items are to be considered "outlets", as follows.

Lighting Outlet. An outlet intended for the direct connection of a lampholder or luminaire

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.


Power Outlet. An enclosed assembly that may include receptacles, circuit breakers, fuseholders, fused switches, buses, and watt-hour meter mounting means; intended to supply and control power to mobile homes, recreational vehicles, park trailers, or boats or to serve as a means for distributing power required to operate mobile or temporarily installed equipment.


Receptacle Outlet. An outlet where one or more receptacles are installed.

Receptacle. A receptacle is a contact device installed at the outlet for the connection of an attachment plug. A single receptacle is a single contact device with no other contact device on the same yoke. A multiple receptacle is two or more contact devices on the same yoke.

Now notice there is no such animal as a Switch Outlet.

Switch, Bypass Isolation. A manually operated device used in conjunction with a transfer switch to provide a means of directly connecting load conductors to a power source and of disconnecting the transfer switch.

Switch, General-Use. A switch intended for use in general distribution and branch circuits. It is rated in amperes, and it is capable of interrupting its rated current at its rated voltage.

Switch, General-Use Snap. A form of general-use switch constructed so that it can be installed in device boxes or on box covers, or otherwise used in conjunction with wiring systems recognized by this Code.

Switch, Isolating. A switch intended for isolating an electrical circuit from the source of power. It has no interrupting rating, and it is intended to be operated only after the circuit has been opened by some other means.

Switch, Motor-Circuit. A switch rated in horsepower that is capable of interrupting the maximum operating overload current of a motor of the same horsepower rating as the switch at the rated voltage.

Switch, Transfer. An automatic or nonautomatic device for transferring one or more load conductor connections from one power source to another.

A switch simply connects wires the same as a wire nut does only easier.

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is
taken to supply utilization equipment.

Branch circuit goes to the switch outlet then the receptacle outlet I have two or more outlets.

(3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit
supplying two or more receptacles or outlets, receptacle
ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table
210.21(B)(3),

And what is your point?

 

[charlie b]

Talk/walk me through it because I know it but then I read this section and it makes me change my mind. No Article messes me up more than this one! 210.21(B)

I'll try. To start with, 210.21(B) has four sub-paragraphs. Numbers (1) and (3) apply to this discussion. 210.21(B)(1) speaks of a single outlet on an "individual branch circuit." That later phrase is defined as a circuit that only feeds one utilization equipment. In that case, the requirement is that the single receptacle be rated not less than the branch circuit. So as Rob correctly pointed out earlier (and I got this part wrong earlier), if there were a simplex GFCI receptacle rated at 20 amps, you could power it from a 15 amp branch circuit that has no other loads.

210.21(B)(3) speaks of a circuit with two or more outlets. We can discuss this (again) separately, but the switch that serves the disposal does not count as a second outlet. If the receptacle that is used for the disposal is a duplex, then it counts as two outlets. So this paragraph would apply. It says a 15 amp circuit can't serve a receptacle rated higher than 15 amps.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Yes we do and a switch is not an outlet, it is a device and the NEC makes that clear.


The NEC took pains to specifically define what items are to be considered "outlets", as follows.




Now notice there is no such animal as a Switch Outlet.



A switch simply connects wires the same as a wire nut does only easier.




And what is your point?

I'll try. To start with, 210.21(B) has four sub-paragraphs. Numbers (1) and (3) apply to this discussion. 210.21(B)(1) speaks of a single outlet on an "individual branch circuit." That later phrase is defined as a circuit that only feeds one utilization equipment. In that case, the requirement is that the single receptacle be rated not less than the branch circuit. So as Rob correctly pointed out earlier (and I got this part wrong earlier), if there were a simplex GFCI receptacle rated at 20 amps, you could power it from a 15 amp branch circuit that has no other loads.

210.21(B)(3) speaks of a circuit with two or more outlets. We can discuss this (again) separately, but the switch that serves the disposal does not count as a second outlet. If the receptacle that is used for the disposal is a duplex, then it counts as two outlets. So this paragraph would apply. It says a 15 amp circuit can't serve a receptacle rated higher than 15 amps.

I called it (the switch) an outlet but that's wrong as is a smoke detector "outlet". They are junction boxes or switch points.

300.14 Length of Free Conductors at Outlets, Junctions,
and Switch Points. At least 150 mm (6 in.) of free
conductor, measured from the point in the box where it
emerges from its raceway or cable sheath, shall be left at each
outlet, junction, and switch point for splices or the connection
of luminaires or devices. Where the opening to an outlet, junction,
or switch point is less than 200 mm (8 in.) in any dimension,
each conductor shall be long enough to extend at least
75 mm (3 in.) outside the opening.

So I am clear. I have a 15 AMP circuit, it goes to a switch point then is hardwire to the disposal. I have not outlet. Correct?

 

[GoldDigger]

For a hardwired device (and a luminaire is a good example) the junction box for the hard wiring (and we can argue about which box if a whip is involved) is an outlet.
We know that with some confidence because those boxes on a ceiling or wall are definitely lighting outlets.
So, in the case of your hardwired disposal, you still have at least one outlet.

Tapatalk!

 

[mjf]

I called it (the switch) an outlet but that's wrong as is a smoke detector "outlet". They are junction boxes or switch points.

maybe I'm wrong but I would consider a hardwired smoke detector utilization equipment.


Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is
taken to supply utilization equipment.

 

[jxofaltrds]

For a hardwired device (and a luminaire is a good example) the junction box for the hard wiring (and we can argue about which box if a whip is involved) is an outlet.
We know that with some confidence because those boxes on a ceiling or wall are definitely lighting outlets.
So, in the case of your hardwired disposal, you still have at least one outlet.

Tapatalk!

One outlet where?

 

[roger]

maybe I'm wrong but I would consider a hardwired smoke detector utilization equipment.

So would I

Roger

 

[charlie b]

One outlet where?

I think the comment was referring to the outlet that is a box in which the wires from the dishwasher are "hard-wired" to the wires from the branch circuit. Keep in mind that an outlet is a point in space, a "location."

 

[GoldDigger]

One outlet where?

Wherever you choose to draw the line between the building wiring and the appliance wiring.
Different people may have different opinions on, for example, which end of a piece of flex the outlet is located at when the flex directly connects the disposal wire compartment to a junction box, but there is an outlet at one end or the other.



Tapatalk!

 

[charlie b]

I called it (the switch) an outlet but that's wrong as is a smoke detector "outlet". They are junction boxes or switch points.

The difference is that the smoke detector takes current away from the premises wiring system, and the switch does not.

So I am clear. I have a 15 AMP circuit, it goes to a switch point then is hardwire to the disposal. I have not outlet. Correct?

Was that a typo? Did you mean to say that "I have ONE outlet"? If so, you would be correct.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Make up your mind.

You tell me that there are only three outlets in 100. Correct?

Where is the outlet on a hardwired disposal or on a smoke detector?

 

[roger]

Make up your mind.

You tell me that there are only three outlets in 100. Correct?

Nobody said there are only three outlets, where did you get that?

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

That covers a plethora of items but switches are not any of them.

Roger

 

[GoldDigger]

And just to either clarify or muddy the waters further, I would say that the box that an AC smoke alarm is attached to would be an outlet, but the box where a smoke detector wired to an alarm system is connected could be interpreted either way.
Two factors that come into play (among many) are:
1. If the smoke detector is just a mechanical switch, then maybe it is not utilizing power
2. The alarm wiring is not building power wiring, nor is it Article 300 wiring, although it certainly is wiring in the building which is covered by the NEC as well as other codes.
So there is at least a four way decision matrix on this point.
:angel:

Tapatalk!

 

[roger]

2. The alarm wiring is not building power wiring, nor is it Article 300 wiring, although it certainly is wiring in the building which is covered by the NEC as well as other codes.
So there is at least a four way decision matrix on this point.
:angel:

Article 760 is a separate animal and if you want to discuss open a new thread. Article 760 is no more relevant to this discussion than article 800 is.

Roger

 

[GoldDigger]

Not trying to open a seperate topic, just commenting on previous statements about what is and is not an outlet under Article 100, without any other qualifying terms.

Tapatalk!

 

[roger]

Not trying to open a seperate topic, just commenting on previous statements about what is and is not an outlet under Article 100, without any other qualifying terms.

Tapatalk!

Ahhh, but there is a qualifier, see 90.3 and the article structure of the code. Article 760 does not modify or add anything concerning this discussion.

Roger

 

[Sierrasparky]

For god sakes , why does anyone want to waste money on a 20Amp device on a 15 amp circuit.
Or use 20 amp Devices in residential situations where no 20 amp devices will ever be used.

I always like the 20 amp duplex recep in the laundry area. What a waste.

 

[480sparky]

For god sakes , why does anyone want to waste money on a 20Amp device on a 15 amp circuit.
Or use 20 amp Devices in residential situations where no 20 amp devices will ever be used.

I always like the 20 amp duplex recep in the laundry area. What a waste.

It stems from their inability to read and understand the Code.

 

[charlie b]

Where is the outlet on a hardwired disposal or on a smoke detector?

The "outlet" is the 2x4 (or more likely 4x4) box within which the dishwasher's wires (or smoke detector's wires) are connected (using wire caps, generally) to the branch circuit wires that originated in the panel. Similarly, with regard to what we often call a "receptacle outlet," the "outlet" is the 2x4 box within which the receptacle is mounted, and within which the branch circuit wires are connected to the receptacle.

 

[jxofaltrds]

The "outlet" is the 2x4 (or more likely 4x4) box within which the dishwasher's wires (or smoke detector's wires) are connected (using wire caps, generally) to the branch circuit wires that originated in the panel. Similarly, with regard to what we often call a "receptacle outlet," the "outlet" is the 2x4 box within which the receptacle is mounted, and within which the branch circuit wires are connected to the receptacle.

Charlie

What I am asking is: 15 AMP circuit starts at the panel 'breaks' at the switch box then to the disposal, like the old days. What do you call the box where the switch is located. I used the term switch outlet and was told that I am wrong so what is it called.

PS to those who think that I am wrong 100 only defines terms used in more than one Article.
"only those terms that are used in two or more
articles are defined in Article 100."