Dang Home inspectors.

[PetrosA]

Change them... unless you're in a jurisdiction like some here in PA where you need a permit to replace GFCI receptacles, together with an audit of the home's smoke detectors, which must be brought up to current codes in order to pass the inspection for replacing the GFCIs in which case, fight the inspector.

 

[growler]

Just change the devices and forget about trying to prove the HI is out of line.

Holding up a home sale over some GFCIs is nuts.

Change them...

You guys wouldn't let an electrical inspector jack you around like this so why let a home inspector.

There is a certain amount of time between the inspection and closing and you are allowed to question a home inspection report. It only takes a few minutes to call the inspector and ask where he is getting his inspection critera ( what standards is he quoting).

You can always change the receptacles (GFCI) but it may not come to that.

 

[PetrosA]

You guys wouldn't let an electrical inspector jack you around like this so why let a home inspector.

There is a certain amount of time between the inspection and closing and you are allowed to question a home inspection report. It only takes a few minutes to call the inspector and ask where he is getting his inspection critera ( what standards is he quoting).

You can always change the receptacles (GFCI) but it may not come to that.

It's not me getting jacked around. It's the seller. I would fight this in the least non-confrontational way I could up to a point if that was what the seller wanted me to do. I consider myself to be the seller's advocate and will fight obvious abuse of HI reporting. If the seller doesn't care and just wants to sell, I'm not going to get into discussions with the HI or anyone else.

In my limited experience with HI reports, they get way more critical in cases of higher end homes than in lower end homes because there are much larger gains to be had. So if a seller of a lower end home was supposed to replace two or three GFCIs, I might recommend that they just do it and gain the upper hand again against the seller. If the HI report of a higher end home indicates that dozens of GFCIs and other things get done, I would get much more critical of the report since it can indicate that the buyer is trying hard to bully the seller. Maybe it's just my experience with HI reports and the fact that they have almost always involved widows in their 70s and 80s who were really upset by the HI reports. The craziest bullying I've come across was in an old home where the buyer demanded that a 50 year old, disconnected automation system be brought back into perfect working condition because the control panel was still in the wall in the upstairs hallway... behind a painting. Gimme a break.

 

[infinity]

The way I read the information that Don posted in post #8 changing them might not "fix" the problem anyway.

 

[69gp]

I despise HI here in MA that pretend they know all about electrical wiring. I have 40 years in the trade and will say I do not know it all as it is always changing. A friend of mine was selling his house and had the buyers HI do an inspection on his house. He removed the panel cover off a Square D 200 amp QO panel. Thought he could smell a burning odor from some breakers so he thought he would pop them out to see if he could see any as in his words ("HOT SPOTS"). Nothing found. The dope could not find the the screws to hold the cover on (dopey put them on top of the panel) so he goes to his truck to get some nice 3" sheet rock screws. They do not hold to good when going into a #3 copper for a sub panel. When this happened the 200 amp main tripped and not the 100 amp. Next thing I get is a phone call to check his panel out. My friend is there along with the HI who then has the balls to tell me the 100A breaker is bad as it would not tripped. Did you ever get the urge to just whack someone over the head with a 3/4" hickey. Need I say anymore about HI.

By the way I would ask the HI to see the factory calibrations for the meter when it was last calibrated and proof he is qualified and trained to use the equipment. The HI is working for the buyer the seller needs protection to.

 

[infinity]

If you work in this trade long enough you will eventually run into a situation where you have to deal with an incompetent or mistaken HI. I'm asking that we do not turn this into a bash the home inspector thread.

 

[qcroanoke]

If you work in this trade long enough you will eventually run into a situation where you have to deal with an incompetent or mistaken HI. I'm asking that we do not turn this into a bash the home inspector thread.

Yeah, there are plenty of those if you want to search for them.

 

[growler]

"All GFCI outlets when tested broke power too slow to meet current standards. Current standard is to break power within 25-30 milliseconds after being tested with a 7.5 milliamp load. All GFCI in the home broke at 115-164 or more milliseconds. Need to remove and replace existing GFCI outlets with new GFCI outlets"

By the way I would ask the HI to see the factory calibrations for the meter when it was last calibrated and proof he is qualified and trained to use the equipment. The HI is working for the buyer the seller needs protection to.

What I want to know is where he is comming up with these "current standards". Were these published by some home inspection organization? Were they taught in a class? Was it an article on the net or magazine?

When an inspector states that something is not up to current standards that's much like quoting code. It does give some validity to the statement if he can produce such "standards". If he can't produce these standards and is just FOS then this is a completely false statement.

I beleive that when a person (HI) make a statement like this they should have to back it up or shut up.

 

[growler]

It's not me getting jacked around. It's the seller. I would fight this in the least non-confrontational way I could up to a point if that was what the seller wanted me to do. I consider myself to be the seller's advocate and will fight obvious abuse of HI reporting. If the seller doesn't care and just wants to sell, I'm not going to get into discussions with the HI or anyone else.

We are talking about the OP and his daughter and that makes it family.

 

[kwired]

I also question his information as far as what the trip curve should be and would be asking for references to that information or showing him the UL standards mentioned in post 8.

Seems to me OP could replace the devices in question and they still may not pass the requirements set by this HI, then what?

I also can not believe a HI would have the equipment to perform such testing in the first place, and if he does have such equipment and does understand it real well, why is he a HI? He certainly has the qualifications to get a better job than that.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

While the standard permits the long trip times, most GFCIs trip much quicker than the maximum permitted by the standard. The test button on the device typically causes ~8 mA to flow and you don't have to hold the button in for the 3.7 seconds that the standard would permit as the trip time.

I expect that the HI is using something like the Extech CT80 tester. It does a number of tests and would be simple for anyone to use. The following is from the user manual for that tester.

The GFCI should typically trip within 200ms. ... If the GFCI circuit fails to respond in 6.5 seconds, the CT80 stops the test automatically and "OL" will display on the meter.

 

[iwire]

You guys wouldn't let an electrical inspector jack you around like this so why let a home inspector.

Apples and oranges.

The HI is never 'jacking the electrician around'. They may be costing the homeowner money but that is between the homeowner, the home buyer and the HI.

IMO this often is nothing more than a pissing match with the EC trying to prove they are smarter than the HI.

 

[iwire]

The way I read the information that Don posted in post #8 changing them might not "fix" the problem anyway.

And yet I would still bill for it and expect to get paid.

 

[growler]

"All GFCI outlets when tested broke power too slow to meet current standards. Current standard is to break power within 25-30 milliseconds after being tested with a 7.5 milliamp load. All GFCI in the home broke at 115-164 or more milliseconds. Need to remove and replace existing GFCI outlets with new GFCI outlets.

I expect that the HI is using something like the Extech CT80 tester. It does a number of tests and would be simple for anyone to use.

What if a service tech were to use this same circuit analyzer to try and up-sale new GFCI outlets to customers based on the 25-30 millisecond trip time?

Anyone think that would be ethical or legal. To tell a customer that they don't have the best product on the market is one thing but to say they need to (required to be ) changed is another.

 

[charlie b]

Holding up a home sale over some GFCIs is nuts.

True enough. However . . .

Just change the devices and forget about trying to prove the HI is out of line.

After which the HI comes back with the same testing method and the new GFCI fails the test as well. :roll:

 

[Sierrasparky]

What if a service tech were to use this same circuit analyzer to try and up-sale new GFCI outlets to customers based on the 25-30 millisecond trip time?

Anyone think that would be ethical or legal. To tell a customer that they don't have the best product on the market is one thing but to say they need to (required to be ) changed is another.

Well I would need to see that tester in action. If a GFCI fails I would like to see if a new one fixes the problem.

 

[kwired]

A HI is not an electrical professional. There may be some that are very good with electrical knowledge, there may be some that only know what they have been taught to look for, and if they see something they have never seen before they will balk as they have no idea what they have or if it is safe. The good HI will mention such items that they maybe have no clue on and then suggest an electrical professional be consulted to further analyze that situation. Any disagreement with the HI findings should probably go to a professional in whatever area is involved to further analyze the situation. If the HI found a structural problem or a plumbing problem that sounds a little "fishy" then a structural expert or a plumber should be consulted to further figure out if there really is a problem.

As has been mentioned if there is just one or two GFCI's in question, maybe he did find a problem even if it is a fairly minor problem and you just change them and be done with it. If all of them are questionable - then maybe there is a need to find out if he is correct with his interpretation of the problem, I sure don't want to replace all of them and find out they still respond in similar fashion to the originals.

 

[growler]

IMO this often is nothing more than a pissing match with the EC trying to prove they are smarter than the HI.

That's not always true, I know some very good home inspectors that try and find real problems. Some have many years in the trades and do know what they are doing. Others think all they need is a class and a gadget.

 

[kwired]

Let's not forget part of the job of a HI is not just to find code violations, but to also find deteriorated items that may be or was at time of install code compliant and report that they may be in need of repair or replacement.

OP could have a house constructed in 1950's with no GFCI's at all - they didn't exist then. If all wiring is original or maintained to original a HI report really should indicate there is no code violations in regard to the initial install concerning GFCI's. He also should mention that current codes would require GFCI's in certain area's for safety reasons and that it would be a good idea to upgrade those areas, but shouldn't necessarily mention that it is a requirement to do so - unless there is local codes that do say so.

 

[growler]

After which the HI comes back with the same testing method and the new GFCI fails the test as well. :roll:

I have had to deal with 100s of these home inspection reports. The inspectors normally don't come back and check anything.

A licensed electrician is contacted to take care of any electrical problems found. Each item listed is given a number and the electician list what action was taken to correct the fault. I normally send an invoice with state number and a list of faults and action taken to correct each fault. I have never had anyone even question the action taken.

In this case you could replace the GFCI receptacles and state that they were tested and passed and this would be enough to satisfy the buyer. They get new GFCIs and a warranty.