Dang Home inspectors.

[growler]

"All GFCI outlets when tested broke power too slow to meet current standards. Current standard is to break power within 25-30 milliseconds after being tested with a 7.5 milliamp load. All GFCI in the home broke at 115-164 or more milliseconds. Need to remove and replace existing GFCI outlets with new GFCI outlets"

Anyone have a reference for this requirement?

Folks we have gotten away from the original question here. I'm not really sure what to do in this situation. Some say just change them and be done with it and it does appear the HI has caused a bit of confusion on the part of the buyer.

I really didn't know that anyone was going around measuring the trip time of GFCIs or that there was equipment for the average joe that could do this. Still not sure how accurate this test equipment is ( they sell used one's on Amazon).


I have checked and Hubbell does state the trip time for their GFCIs is 25 Milliseconds and this seems to be what the HI is wanting.

I like a good fight but I think this might just take to much time so I would give the homeowner a price to change the GFCIs out to the highest quality and see what they wish to do.

I still think the Home Inspector is wrong to use this test equipment unless it becomes some sort of industry standard. If it does become a standard there should be a calibration proceedure to make sure the equipment is functioning properly and that the person useing it is properly trained.

 

[ptonsparky]

Daughters decision was to request a cut sheet for GFCIs that meet standards invoked by the HI, and if that could be provided she would install them herself. She is an enginner type grad and was my apprentice for several years so is quite capable.

Last I heard, the Realators involved were going to front the money for change out, but by whom I do not know.

 

[kwired]

Folks we have gotten away from the original question here. I'm not really sure what to do in this situation. Some say just change them and be done with it and it does appear the HI has caused a bit of confusion on the part of the buyer.

I really didn't know that anyone was going around measuring the trip time of GFCIs or that there was equipment for the average joe that could do this. Still not sure how accurate this test equipment is ( they sell used one's on Amazon).


I have checked and Hubbell does state the trip time for their GFCIs is 25 Milliseconds and this seems to be what the HI is wanting.

I like a good fight but I think this might just take to much time so I would give the homeowner a price to change the GFCIs out to the highest quality and see what they wish to do.

I still think the Home Inspector is wrong to use this test equipment unless it becomes some sort of industry standard. If it does become a standard there should be a calibration proceedure to make sure the equipment is functioning properly and that the person useing it is properly trained.

Kind of my thoughts as well, but the problem is the real purpose of a HI is to point out potential problems that the buyer and seller may need to come to an agreement on. He is not the same thing as a EI that can reject an install and demand it be brought to a certain standard or pay some consequence - but often lenders seem to think the HI is preaching some kind of gospel and you must do what he says, and second opinions are not only rejected but often not even recognized, and this is all based on lowering purchase price and amount of money to be lended more so then any practicality matters, because the bottom line for the lenders is profit and loss to them.

 

[cadpoint]

Daughters decision was to request a cut sheet for GFCIs that meet standards invoked by the HI, and if that could be provided she would install them herself.
She is an enginner type grad and was my apprentice for several years so is quite capable.
Last I heard, the Realators involved were going to front the money for change out, but by
whom I do not know.

OP orginally states

"All GFCI outlets when tested broke power too slow to meet current standards.
Current standard is to break power within 25-30 milliseconds after being tested with
a 7.5 milliamp load. All GFCI in the home broke at 115-164 or more milliseconds.
Need to remove and replace existing GFCI outlets with new GFCI outlets"

I want to know what the HI had for test equipment that measures that?

If one looks up average eye blink speed, this is the speed that is being talked about,

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/1998-11/911697403.Me.r.html

 

[AdrianWint]

Interesting discussion.

RCD (Residual Current Device) is indeed the European terminology for your GFCI. That said, the devices are pretty much identical creatures, working by measuring the difference between the hot & neutral conductors, operating if that exceeds some threshold.

It would seem that, in the UK at least, the testing requirement is more strict than over your side of the pond. Testing by pressing the 'TEST' button is NOT recognised as being acceptable when performed by anyone other than the homeowner. The Professional must use a purposed designed (& checked & regularly calibrated) test instrument to perform testing on RCDs. This will not only test tripping at rated current, showing its trip time in ms, but also at 50% of rated (when it should not trip) and also at 5 x rated (when it should trip in a significantly less time than at x 1). It will perform tests using both half cycles of the AC waveform and will also perform a 'ramp test'. Ramp testing is whereby the test current is increased over a period of time until the device operates. The point on the ramp is recorded & displayed. In total, 7 different tests are needed & the results should be recorded on the test/inspection certificate for the home.


For those interested, I attach a link to Meggers UK installation test gear offerings

http://www.megger.com/uk/products/ProductDetailsBySubGroup.php?PSGC=B114&BS=B

 

[GoldDigger]

Regarding test instruments for the purpose of testing RCDs and GFCIs:

One reason that UL states that the TEST button is the only appropriate mechanism for testing an installed GFCI is that the NEC allows (even encourages) use of GFCI receptacles to add some measure of protection to old installed 2 wire circuits with no EGC/PE conductor available.
With only two wires to work with, there is no way to use an external tester to generate a current imbalance to check the GFCI operation.

 

[PetrosA]

Regarding test instruments for the purpose of testing RCDs and GFCIs:

One reason that UL states that the TEST button is the only appropriate mechanism for testing an installed GFCI is that the NEC allows (even encourages) use of GFCI receptacles to add some measure of protection to old installed 2 wire circuits with no EGC/PE conductor available.
With only two wires to work with, there is no way to use an external tester to generate a current imbalance to check the GFCI operation.

You can always run a wire to a good ground. The testers that Andrian linked to run anywhere from $600 to more than $1000 each, plus yearly (?) calibrations. I am certain a qualified electrician could test even an ungrounded RCD accurately with one.

 

[ActionDave]

Daughters decision was to request a cut sheet for GFCIs that meet standards invoked by the HI, and if that could be provided she would install them herself. She is an enginner type grad and was my apprentice for several years so is quite capable. .....

Congrats to you. I am hoping for a similar attitude from my girls in the future.

 

[kwired]

Pressing the test button is the only test method mentioned in any instructions, too many people take that too literally IMO to mean that is the only acceptable testing method.

That method gives you nothing but a simple go/no go test result. It in no way tells you if the device is still tripping per listing or other standard specifications. And any intentionally introduced fault condition that is outside the hold specifications had better trip the device or else you would have to assume it is either malfunctioning or was never operating at the correct specifications to begin with.

If I were in the OP situation, I would first want to confirm that the trip levels the HI gave were correct. It has been posted that the acceptable levels were higher than the HI reported. Then we also have to assume the HI generally only gives a report of deficiencies and he does not come back and confirm they have been corrected, so that leaves the owner with the task of either correcting those or hiring some professional to either correct or further investigate and make decisions on the correct course of action. Further investigation could end up with no corrective action being taken, and an explanation of why the problem mentioned by the HI is not something that requires any further action.

Again if HI only mentions one or two of the GFCI's are questionable then maybe the more economic course of action is to just replace them and call it good. If he says all of them in the house are questionable - that to me raises concerns that maybe his testing procedure or posted standards needs questioned as well.

 

[mbrooke]

Daughter is trying to sell her house. One of the gigs by a HI is that the GFCIs trip to slow. Home is 4 years old.

"All GFCI outlets when tested broke power too slow to meet current standards. Current standard is to break power within 25-30 milliseconds after being tested with a 7.5 milliamp load. All GFCI in the home broke at 115-164 or more milliseconds. Need to remove and replace existing GFCI outlets with new GFCI outlets"

Anyone have a reference for this requirement?

Personally I would ask to see his latest calibration documents, but other than that, is he FOS?

And my question is how would he know that. You would need highly specialized test instruments that are not part of a regular home inspection.

To me its a bogus statement. Anyone whos buying a house would believe it has a worrisome safety defect and the HI writing it sounds like an unarguable expert. Anyone who actually works with electrical engineering or code will immediately say hes trying to sound smart overcompensating for what he lacks. HI bogus has no limits. These people really are severely under trained.

 

[kwired]

And my question is how would he know that. You would need highly specialized test instruments that are not part of a regular home inspection.

To me its a bogus statement. Anyone whos buying a house would believe it has a worrisome safety defect and the HI writing it sounds like an unarguable expert. Anyone who actually works with electrical engineering or code will immediately say hes trying to sound smart overcompensating for what he lacks. HI bogus has no limits. These people really are severely under trained.

This is not the audience that you need to convince that to though, generally it is the lending industry and maybe the insurance industry that needs to hear it. Sure you have a "professional" providing a service. But what needs to be explained is it is the equivalent to having a general practitioner finding something that doesn't seem right and you really need a specialist to give further information on what may be wrong. Another problem is the HI often is seen and even portrays themselves as someone that should know everything about the application, but the GP will tell you you need to see the specialist, and will not approve or condemn your condition.

 

[growler]

Pressing the test button is the only test method mentioned in any instructions, too many people take that too literally IMO to mean that is the only acceptable testing method.

That method gives you nothing but a simple go/no go test result. It in no way tells you if the device is still tripping per listing or other standard specifications. And any intentionally introduced fault condition that is outside the hold specifications had better trip the device or else you would have to assume it is either malfunctioning or was never operating at the correct specifications to begin with.

On the other hand how many people would be willing to pay someone to come in and test their GFCI protection say once a year.

The technology behind the GFCI design has gotten much better in the last few years.

The main problem that I see ( this is just an opinion ) is that many people don't buy quality GFCI products. They buy and install those $5-$6 off brand knock-offs that may be copies of older designs and not as good as the new GFCI technology.

The British method of doing all that testing will still only tell you that they are functioning properly on the day of the test. One electrical storm later and you would never know.

I think that if we were having any real trouble with our GFCI installation and testing the problem would show up in hospitals long before we noticed in residential. As far as I know there is no extensive testing done even in a health care environment.

 

[growler]

You would need highly specialized test instruments that are not part of a regular home inspection.

Yes and if you are a HI and wish to perform such a test you should at least list the type of test equipment used for the test. You should also list the test criteria. Is this just his opinion that the trip time is to slow or does he have guidlines from some approved authority ( the manufacturer, UL, NEMA, any of the electrical safety organizations, ect. ).

 

[AdrianWint]

..... The British method of doing all that testing will still only tell you that they are functioning properly on the day of the test. One electrical storm later and you would never know......

I agree. And we still get many cases of RCDs which won't actually operate when called upon to do so because they haven't been exercised in many a year and their tripping mechanisms have become 'stuck'.

Most UK RCDs are passive - ie they don't contain any electronics, so we don't seem to suffer as much from the problems of a decent electrical storm wiping out processor/chips.... more that the RCDs tend to be mounted in the consumer unit (breaker box/load centre) and no homeowner ever actual presses the test button!

One problem we do get is that of education "Oh, the RCDs tripped...... and it won't reset ...... it must be broken!" !!!!:happysad:

 

[GoldDigger]

I can't see where you put the penny in to 'fix' it....

Tapatalk!

 

[growler]

we still get many cases of RCDs which won't actually operate when called upon to do so because they haven't been exercised in many a year and their tripping mechanisms have become 'stuck'.

I have a copy of IEE BS7671-G3-Inspection and Testing. ( picked it up in my travels ).

It's my understanding that you have guidlines for testing by qualified (competent persons) useing acceptable test equipment. You even keep records and documentation.

Here we have a home inspector ( not a code inspection) that may or may not be qualified ( certified. tested in any way ) useing an unknown piece of test equipment and testing to specifications or guidlines from whatever source.

These home buyers are probably expecting an electrical inspection such as what they would have recieved in the UK. I doubt they are getting anything close by the average HI.

This is just my understanding and may be completely wrong. We have put our faith more in the design of the device (GFCI ) and it's electronic components that in a lot of testing that most homeowners wouldn't have done anyway.

As far as I know there is no government agency, manufacturer's association, safety organization or anyone that has given us (here in the US) any real guidlines for the testing of the operation of the GFCI receptacle other than the "Test Button".

The thing is I haven't herd or read any articles of people getting electrocuted in homes, hospitals, pools or job sites where GFCI protection was provided. It also seems to me that if there was a piece of test equipment (reliable) that would help weed out older slower GFCIs that the manufacturers would encourage it's use to boost sales.

A few days ago I was satisfied to install a GFCI, push the test button and then reset. Everything required by the manufacturer and code.

By the way we tell customers the they should test their GFCI once a month and I don't know anyone that does it ( not even me ).

 

[kwired]

On the other hand how many people would be willing to pay someone to come in and test their GFCI protection say once a year.

The technology behind the GFCI design has gotten much better in the last few years.

The main problem that I see ( this is just an opinion ) is that many people don't buy quality GFCI products. They buy and install those $5-$6 off brand knock-offs that may be copies of older designs and not as good as the new GFCI technology.

The British method of doing all that testing will still only tell you that they are functioning properly on the day of the test. One electrical storm later and you would never know.

I think that if we were having any real trouble with our GFCI installation and testing the problem would show up in hospitals long before we noticed in residential. As far as I know there is no extensive testing done even in a health care environment.

I can't see where you put the penny in to 'fix' it....

Tapatalk!

The slots are too small for pennies, and besides if it is a TR receptacle you would need to insert one in each side simultaneously:happyyes:

I have a copy of IEE BS7671-G3-Inspection and Testing. ( picked it up in my travels ).

It's my understanding that you have guidlines for testing by qualified (competent persons) useing acceptable test equipment. You even keep records and documentation.

Here we have a home inspector ( not a code inspection) that may or may not be qualified ( certified. tested in any way ) useing an unknown piece of test equipment and testing to specifications or guidlines from whatever source.

These home buyers are probably expecting an electrical inspection such as what they would have recieved in the UK. I doubt they are getting anything close by the average HI.

This is just my understanding and may be completely wrong. We have put our faith more in the design of the device (GFCI ) and it's electronic components that in a lot of testing that most homeowners wouldn't have done anyway.

As far as I know there is no government agency, manufacturer's association, safety organization or anyone that has given us (here in the US) any real guidlines for the testing of the operation of the GFCI receptacle other than the "Test Button".

The thing is I haven't herd or read any articles of people getting electrocuted in homes, hospitals, pools or job sites where GFCI protection was provided. It also seems to me that if there was a piece of test equipment (reliable) that would help weed out older slower GFCIs that the manufacturers would encourage it's use to boost sales.

A few days ago I was satisfied to install a GFCI, push the test button and then reset. Everything required by the manufacturer and code.

By the way we tell customers the they should test their GFCI once a month and I don't know anyone that does it ( not even me ).

I don't tell them anything. Most of them still don't know why we need a receptacle with that test/reset button and think the circuit breaker back at the panel is the same thing, but at same time it never occurs to them that the receptacle often trips more than the breaker does and that maybe that means it is protecting you from something different.

As far as the HI - he is like I mentioned before - just a general practitioner telling you the overall health of the home. He looks at all systems and makes some basic evaluations, though some seem to think they are experts in all areas and overstep their abilities, and this thread is kind of about one of those situations to some degree. Deficiencies they find should be referred to someone that specializes in that particular area for further study before action is taken and this particular concern that was brought up is a good example. Had he found something just as questionable with plumbing, HVAC, or structural issues then professionals in those areas should be consulted as well.