ggunn
PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
- Location
- Austin, TX, USA
- Occupation
- Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Likewise, incandescent lights only waste power when they are on. What's your point?
LED Christmas Lights Won't Turn Off
- Thread starter nuckythompson
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Neither incandescent, CF, or LED lamps draw any power when they are off. There is a switch that cuts all power to it. If it has power, it lights up. No parasitic loss. Now maybe in a smart switch or these new smart bulbs which need to be powered all the time and use wi-fi to turn them on.
The typical edison base lamp is usually in a switched fixture. This caused no end of grief when I used to use X-10 controls for lights. Someone would be visiting and turn the switches off because they couldn't get the lights to work.
But these things that can cause parasitic loss with lights are not the fault of LED, as the controls have been around since the 70's. I think it is the proliferation of other things, like multiple computers, a network modem and routers, cell phone chargers, smart appliances that never really turn off, all the clocks... In the 90's I had one computer that was off most of the time that was used with dial up. In the 2000's I had an always on modem and router and 2 computers always on. Now I have a mesh network so there are 4 routers/bridges always on, still 2 computers, and a camera security NVR system always on.
The typical edison base lamp is usually in a switched fixture. This caused no end of grief when I used to use X-10 controls for lights. Someone would be visiting and turn the switches off because they couldn't get the lights to work.
But these things that can cause parasitic loss with lights are not the fault of LED, as the controls have been around since the 70's. I think it is the proliferation of other things, like multiple computers, a network modem and routers, cell phone chargers, smart appliances that never really turn off, all the clocks... In the 90's I had one computer that was off most of the time that was used with dial up. In the 2000's I had an always on modem and router and 2 computers always on. Now I have a mesh network so there are 4 routers/bridges always on, still 2 computers, and a camera security NVR system always on.
zbang
Senior Member
- Location
- Roughly 5346 miles from Earls Court
There is no result of dividing by zero, it's mathematically impossible (some software will return "not a number" as the result).
Electricity consumption has actually leveled off and has even dropped recently in spite of all of these evil power vampires. Any “power issues” are due to the recent mothballing of power plants, especially coal-fired, not a bunch of milliwatt loads.
readydave8
re member
- Location
- Clarkesville, Georgia
- Occupation
- electrician
never mind, someone else already said it
JesseETG
Member
- Location
- Bakersfield California
- Occupation
- Electrician
Many electronic switches have a led on the switch or use little current to keep the electronics working with the wifi/bluetooth and what not. Maybe the current on the neutral is keeping the lights on. Try switching to a no neutral electronic switch if available.
FionaZuppa
Senior Member
- Location
- AZ
- Occupation
- Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
It's not all about total consumption.
Take a 20GW plant.
12GW between 2-4pm and 8GW between 4-6pm, total is 20GW between 2-6pm, and the source can handle the load at both times.
But what if demand suddenly becomes 19GW between 2-4pm and 8GW between 4-6pm. Suddenly the system looks awful close to FAIL during 2-4pm time. Then population grow a bit and new technology needs more power and it puts +5% more load on the system, so now its 19.95GW 2-4pm and 8.4GW 4-6pm. Now the source can give no more 2-4pm, and operating at 99.99% is not the best situation to run in.
Why does industrial appear to drop off? Because US got lazy and full of red tape, so most industrial operations are done outside the US. NYC sewer caps are made in India. So, although it shows the graphs taper off to plateau, it's not clearly shown why. The WHY part is of utmost important. When industrial (and perhaps some others) returns to US (if ever) that sector(s) will be heavy burden on power use. Where is transportation on the graph, it shows as yellow in the table?
And on that graph, where's the "wasted power" lines for that time period. Bet ya in 1950 the waste (for many reasons) was significantly less than in 2021.
When all the eV drivers want to charge at night, solar is gone and their backyard wind turbine is not turning, so they get power from the grid. Diversity in power use will become very time-of-use oriented.
Remember, forcing toilet makers to go from 1.8gal down to 1.6gal was suppose to save the planet by conserving water use, as if somehow water was leaving Earth. So when the 1.6gal toilets came out everyone flushes twice because 1.6 simply was not enough to get the job done. Spend $6 to save $5, is simply a fail when it comes to real solutions. In CA, instead of figuring out better ways to get water, they just pay people to remove CO2-eating grass from their yards, but not enough thinking power to question "hmmm, what next when there is no more grass to remove?".
Take a 20GW plant.
12GW between 2-4pm and 8GW between 4-6pm, total is 20GW between 2-6pm, and the source can handle the load at both times.
But what if demand suddenly becomes 19GW between 2-4pm and 8GW between 4-6pm. Suddenly the system looks awful close to FAIL during 2-4pm time. Then population grow a bit and new technology needs more power and it puts +5% more load on the system, so now its 19.95GW 2-4pm and 8.4GW 4-6pm. Now the source can give no more 2-4pm, and operating at 99.99% is not the best situation to run in.
Why does industrial appear to drop off? Because US got lazy and full of red tape, so most industrial operations are done outside the US. NYC sewer caps are made in India. So, although it shows the graphs taper off to plateau, it's not clearly shown why. The WHY part is of utmost important. When industrial (and perhaps some others) returns to US (if ever) that sector(s) will be heavy burden on power use. Where is transportation on the graph, it shows as yellow in the table?
And on that graph, where's the "wasted power" lines for that time period. Bet ya in 1950 the waste (for many reasons) was significantly less than in 2021.
When all the eV drivers want to charge at night, solar is gone and their backyard wind turbine is not turning, so they get power from the grid. Diversity in power use will become very time-of-use oriented.
Remember, forcing toilet makers to go from 1.8gal down to 1.6gal was suppose to save the planet by conserving water use, as if somehow water was leaving Earth. So when the 1.6gal toilets came out everyone flushes twice because 1.6 simply was not enough to get the job done. Spend $6 to save $5, is simply a fail when it comes to real solutions. In CA, instead of figuring out better ways to get water, they just pay people to remove CO2-eating grass from their yards, but not enough thinking power to question "hmmm, what next when there is no more grass to remove?".
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Switching from incandescent to CFL and LED did save energy in the perspective that you would still want similar light output and for similar times of use after the conversion. All them use no energy when not in use.
Did we drop more energy load from the grid over the past 20 or so years by changing to more energy efficient lighting than we added with these "parasitic" loads over the same time? Likely so. If anything we added load to the grid because of more things using electric energy along with there plain and simply being more users over time, but had we not gone with more energy efficient items as time went along the grid would be loaded even more than it is now.
FionaZuppa
Senior Member
- Location
- AZ
- Occupation
- Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
I think at some point they need to stop saying "use less water, don't turn your lights on, turn your AC up 3 more, stop using water, only charge your eV after 6pm" and start figuring out how to supply more energy and supply more water, to meet the demand of it's users. If I pay for a 200A service and I use 240V180A 24/7 and 95% is wasted power, I paid for it and the service should accommodate me, otherwise why do I have a 200A service? I did not elect for my panel to be 200A, someone else decided that my home needed a 200A service.
Maybe one day home electric will be billed like cell data plans, 1st 1000kWhr at some low cost, next 500kWhr at higher cost, and any extra beyond that 1500kWhr costs arm & leg & 1st born, per 30day bill cycle. That would force people to think twice about that service they pay for.
Maybe all moot if they can online nuke fusion in 10yrs. When that happens electric and H will be free. Wait, I take that back, electric and H will be arm & leg still.
FionaZuppa
Senior Member
- Location
- AZ
- Occupation
- Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
Your answer fits no general math. 0/0 is an "indeterminate".
Look at it this way, if the running engine (in drive mode) get's 20mpg's (20miles/1gal) and you use no gal, you get no miles.
Proof: 20mi/gal * (0gal) = 0mi, thus 0mi per 0gal = 0mi/0gal = 0 (no miles and no gal).
Contrary, if the engine is idling, 0mi/50gal = zero mpg's = 0, yet still used gal. 0/50 = 0/0 ? Interesting.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Some utilities have billed in different tier rates as usage goes up. That is nothing new. Different rates during peak demand periods isn't new either. Might be a little newer for typical residential customers though.I think at some point they need to stop saying "use less water, don't turn your lights on, turn your AC up 3 more, stop using water, only charge your eV after 6pm" and start figuring out how to supply more energy and supply more water, to meet the demand of it's users. If I pay for a 200A service and I use 240V180A 24/7 and 95% is wasted power, I paid for it and the service should accommodate me, otherwise why do I have a 200A service? I did not elect for my panel to be 200A, someone else decided that my home needed a 200A service.
Maybe one day home electric will be billed like cell data plans, 1st 1000kWhr at some low cost, next 500kWhr at higher cost, and any extra beyond that 1500kWhr costs arm & leg & 1st born, per 30day bill cycle. That would force people to think twice about that service they pay for.
Maybe all moot if they can online nuke fusion in 10yrs. When that happens electric and H will be free. Wait, I take that back, electric and H will be arm & leg still.
zbang
Senior Member
- Location
- Roughly 5346 miles from Earls Court
It fits exactly, and that's what I said- 0/0 is not a number. You can look it up if you don't believe me (I'll save some time- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_by_zero. It deals with the reverse operation and if there is any number which when multiplied by zero yields that number; there is not.)Your answer fits no general math. 0/0 is an "indeterminate".
Your math does not work. If an engine is running, it must be using fuel (energy) even if not much. If it is not running, there is no energy use and probably no distance traveled. And no "miles per gallon" since there no gallons used. In the end, you can say that the non-running car gets infinite miles per gallon, you could also say that it gets zero MPG; neither are mathematically correct.
This is how arithmetic works, I didn't make the rules
.For the physics nerds- this is like the concept that you can know exactly where something is or how fast it's moving (if moving at all), but not both. To measure velocity, you need motion and time, and when the object is moving, you cannot know where it is because by the time you observe the position, it has moved.... (poorly expressed but generally correct)
ggunn
PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
- Location
- Austin, TX, USA
- Occupation
- Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
What happens when you divide by zero:
FionaZuppa
Senior Member
- Location
- AZ
- Occupation
- Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
Divide by zero is a specific class of answer, it's an "indeterminate", not "undefined" or anything other.It fits exactly, and that's what I said- 0/0 is not a number. You can look it up if you don't believe me (I'll save some time- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_by_zero. It deals with the reverse operation and if there is any number which when multiplied by zero yields that number; there is not.)
Your math does not work. If an engine is running, it must be using fuel (energy) even if not much. If it is not running, there is no energy use and probably no distance traveled. And no "miles per gallon" since there no gallons used. In the end, you can say that the non-running car gets infinite miles per gallon, you could also say that it gets zero MPG; neither are mathematically correct.
This is how arithmetic works, I didn't make the rules
For the physics nerds- this is like the concept that you can know exactly where something is or how fast it's moving (if moving at all), but not both. To measure velocity, you need motion and time, and when the object is moving, you cannot know where it is because by the time you observe the position, it has moved.... (poorly expressed but generally correct)
Non running engine is not infinite mpg's, we already defined the real thing, the engine, to be 20mpg when driving. It either gets 20mpg when running, or no mpg's when not running, there is no inbetween.
It's Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, and it's not classical physics, it's quantum physics realm. All you need is two observers to know velocity (position, speed, and direction at any given time).
You don't need motion and time-change to derive velocity. Take any given velocity equation in vector format, you can derive instaneous direction and speed at any given time(t). You don't need any change in time to derive it.
Anyways, been fun, off topic. out.
zbang
Senior Member
- Location
- Roughly 5346 miles from Earls Court
You surely do unless that motion is zero (where the positional change divided by time is 0 / time, or 0).
(Not bothering with the other parts since I've already covered them and there's no point in repeating myself. At least you seem to agree with me now on divide-by-zero.)
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I disagree. Leave it idle in park - engine is running it is consuming fuel but vehicle is going nowhere. Only useful work that maybe is being done is heating or cooling the passenger compartment or charging the battery or running any other accessories that might be used even if not traveling.
FionaZuppa
Senior Member
- Location
- AZ
- Occupation
- Part Time Electrician (semi retired, old) - EE retired.
0mi/10 gal, 0mi/11gal, 0mi/12gal, 0mi/15gal, gas tank now empty, engine dies, MPG's are still zero. That's the same as engine off, zero MPG's, except gas tank stays full.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
But is an analogy of "parasitic load". Even less efficient in most cases but similar concept.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
Of course MPG makes no sense when no distance is involved. It is why we use time.
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
OP, did any of this parasitic load discussion solve your issue?
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