600 yard to pump

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mtnelect said:
Could you please explain your recent comment about the neutral connection from the primary to secondary.
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Utility side neutral if isolated won't provide any electrical system that would allow transient voltage between a nuetral in this body of water or the equipment ground to the utility side nuetral for example from the ground plate on the bottom of the pole.

It has use in the dairy Industry since cows are especially sensitive to this and here is an example of a product that does this. https://www.dairyland.com/product/neutral-isolator/
 
letgomywago said:
Utility side neutral if isolated won't provide any electrical system that would allow transient voltage between a nuetral in this body of water or the equipment ground to the utility side nuetral for example from the ground plate on the bottom of the pole.

It has use in the dairy Industry since cows are especially sensitive to this and here is an example of a product that does this. https://www.dairyland.com/product/neutral-isolator/
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In the full article that I have previously posted, farm animals are indeed more sensitive to this current flow, more than humans. And it can have a major impact on milk production.
 
Barbqranch said:
Would it be possible to create a safe situation by installing a jet pump away from the pond, and using plastic pipe for the suction? I am not sure of the possible consequences.
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Thats what I would do. 575V pump also.
 
This is a common installation. We've discussed the dangers caused, and I am convinced that this sort of install should not be permitted. But no amount of our yelling here will make a difference.

To the OP: I bet if you look at the packaging or instructions for the pump your customer bought, it explicitly prohibits this installation. You need to decide if you are ok with that liability risk.

I posted a link to what Idaho suggested/ required for this application. They basically said this is the best practice for this common misapplication of these pumps'. Apparently this has changed and the link I gave was to a prior version on a pump company website. I've added current requirements below.

IMHO following the previous Idaho requirements you will create a vastly improved safety situation. It will not be a perfect situation, but sometimes perfect is the enemy of the good. One if their provisions: a marked no swimming area around the pump. Another: annual check of the system by an electrician.

I'd consider adding some sort of current sensing alarm to the EGC that goes with the pump circuit. If the utility sends more than so many milliamps down the EGC then there would be an alert. But no code requires this.

I don't fully understand the implications of the Idaho code vs availability of pumps actually listed for use in swimming areas.

Current code:

Previous best practices:

Blog post during the legal fight about the pumps, for a period of time they were apparently prohibited in Idaho:
www.rcworst.com

Idaho Division of Building Safety Policy On Submersible Lake Pumps

The State of Idaho is no longer allowing the use of submersible well pumps in Idaho lakes and rivers.
www.rcworst.com www.rcworst.com
 
letgomywago said:
It has use in the dairy Industry since cows are especially sensitive to this and here is an example of a product that does this. https://www.dairyland.com/product/neutral-isolator/
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From the web site- Note: The Dairyland model VTNI is not authorized for use in solving nuisance shock to persons at swimming pools or similar human health situations where structure to ground voltage is present.

There's also Ronk - https://ronkelectrical.com/categories/blocker-stray-voltage-isolator
 
I believe I found the resolution of the issue in Idaho. This is again on the pump company blog:


In a nutshell: Idaho permits the 'traditional' use of submersible well pumps in bodies of water, but requires GFCI or GFPE (30ma) and requires the pump be listed under UL778. This permission is given even though UL778 doesn't evaluate pumps for swimming areas.

This is a lower bar then the originally suggested policy, which included a redundant EGC, a marking buoy prohibiting swimming, and annual inspections.

-Jon
 
I guess we have had a deaths on are lake from swimming.
Probably is a bigger problem then most think.

Normally around here the plumbers wire after their controle box.
They ussaly just through the wire on the ground it’s kinda scary and you know it was not permitted.
 
AC\DC said:
You have property rights as an individual.
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In Oregon they require annual residential plumbing inspections of back-flow devices.
The annual pool inspection thing was deleted becasue the state electrical board did not want to administer annual pool inspections in the Electrical Code, kinda a 'not our department' thing.

There is a long standing Oregon legal tradition that "The people of Oregon" are the legal owners of all the submerged and submersible land (“beds and banks”) underlying all "navigable or tidally influenced" waterways. In most cases, this ownership extends to the line of ordinary high water or high tide, Ocean beaches are public up even farther, up to the first dune or vegetation.
And in addition beaches in Oregon are considered a 'public highway' and some were used as such to deliver the mail along the coast back in the old horse and buggy days.
There are alot of famous legal battles that happened with coastal hotels that were putting up fences on beaches.
So any kind of dock or pump in a lake that is "navigable or tidally influenced" can affect the public and is not really on private property.
 
The back flow is because your connecting to a city source if your own well they got nothing

As for tidal this lake is spring fead and would not fall under that. You could try and make a wild claim like most lawsuits are lol.


Also just cause some government agency makes a rule up does not mean it’s a valid rule that you need to comply with.
It’s are job to tell them we’re to stick it so they don’t run slowly take away are freedom
Take it to court. If I ever get rich I would take so many arbitrary rules to Oregon Supreme Court.
 
AC\DC said:
The back flow is because your connecting to a city source if your own well they got nothing

As for tidal this lake is spring fead and would not fall under that. You could try and make a wild claim like most lawsuits are lol.
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Dont forget the "navigable" part. When Oregon became a state in 1859, all the land underlying waterways that were used, or could have
been used, to transport people and goods, became state-owned.
I am personally in favor of that one. It makes boating and fishing possible on lakes.
So if you can boat on a river or lake the land under it is state owned and so are the beaches.
People with private islands on lakes have to allow boaters to land etc.
Even if you own all the land around a lake the land under the lake is public.

AC\DC said:
If I ever get rich I would take so many arbitrary rules to Oregon Supreme Court.
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I agree there are many that do need to go. But not that one IMO.
 
AC\DC said:
Client has a very old system it’s goes under state road through another owners property.
Pump is 600 yards from well house.

I did not know how far it was when I put a 2-pole gfci in. But the reason I did it was because it was a two wire pump with no ground .
The gfci held for about a year .
The gfci I put in is finnaly tripping so pump or line is broken, or gfci is getting more sensitive either way it has to be fixed.

They’re going to bore that far but a 2hp motor at 240 volt draws 12 amp.
With a 3% vd I am looking at 4/0
If I boost it to 480 with Tran and back down still looking at 1/0
( aluminum for both)

Poco is not an option to get down there..

Have not felt with boring before.
Seems I use there conduits and I don’t supply any. I just size it for them.

Getting a transformer to boost it up seemed good at first but the wire size does not go down that much plus paying for waisted heat.
Any ideas would be appreciated
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My only comment is to take extreme care in the installation of any conductors over 120/240 volt in any residential applications as future maintenance and incidental contact can be quite deadly quite quickly wit these higher potentials. I have served similar installations botth ways. Depending on demand you may find a DC Lower voltage motor that could rely on lower voltage and a battery bank , even supplement with Solar or wind as well.
This is what I would look at
 
winnie said:
In theory you can have a voltage doubling drive that would take 240V single phase and create 480V three phase to run the pump.
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In theory yes. In practice, nobody makes that. The “voltage doubling” circuit for doing that at 480V costs more than a transformer. Plus in this case, you will have to replace the pump too.

You could consider the transformer up/down at 600V, see if that lowers your conductor size even more. You are not going to actually use the 609V for anything else, so might as well.
 
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