What did cross my mind is that it takes a decent amount of fault current around 120 Amps to trip a 40A regular breaker (300% of the breaker) in a short time like a few seconds, and a 39A ground fault could flow indefinitely.
I'm didn't go back an look but pretty certain I answered this question early on in the thread.
If it’s considered a seperate building or structure why wouldn’t you consider it to fall under the scope 210.8(f)’s requirement to protect these outlets located in accessory building on the dwellings property. He said its the size of a smaller detached shed.
Because (F) is for outdoor outlets. If it is considered to be indoors in a dwelling accessory structure (A) is what would apply to it, and (A) only applies to receptacle outlets which would not apply if the sauna were hard wired connection. Sauna is not mentioned in the list of specific appliances of (D) either.
If you have not seen a barrel sauna they are pretty interesting here is an example of one:
I’ve seen plenty of barrel saunas and wired a few . I only used that example because he said it couldn’t be an accessory building but that’s up to interpretation and then he said (a) covers the location so (f) says it doesn’t apply but that’s not what (f) says it doesn’t apply to the receptacles outlets that are already covered by (a) hardwired connection/outlet isnt covered by (a) because it’s not a receptacle outlet location is irrelevant. Not trying to be snappy sorry if it comes off that way
My bad. I should have read through (F) before replying. My state amended 210.8 to be mostly the same as it is in 2017NEC so I don't necessarily deal with (F) for work I do.
It says (f) requires gfci protection for all outdoor outlets other than those covered in 210.8(a), exception 1, including outlets installed in the following locations and I circled those following locations . They say all outlets other than the receptacle outlets covered by 210.8(a) . A Hardwired outlet is not a receptacle outlet so (a) does not cover it so it falls under (f)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
All good bro appreciate you saying that , most guys usually just double down , respect !! But that makes sense !
Most of us on here go by what we call 'Charlie's Rules';
Do you always put them on a GFCI in Mass?
Absolutely not, mass deletes 210.8(f) , I try to to base all my comments on what the NEC requires, and refrain from making comments based on the requirements of my locally adopted electrical code, or at least address that it’s in reference tothe mass code if I do . This is strictly what I believe to be the intent behind the code in the NEC i
Btw my state deleted 210.8(f) as well so providing gfci protection for that sauna or any other outdoor hardwired utilization equipment unless required by 210.8(d) would never cross my mind either lol
And I often find myself applying “Charlie’s rules” as well. Mostly when a credible/knowledgeable source has a different interpretation of a codes intent than I do, and just like you multiple times after re reading the rule in question I’ve felt that the intent of the code is different then I previously believed it to be
The word "in" was not the correct word as the section is only intended to apply to outside outlets. "In" will be replaced with "at" in the 2026 code to clear up the confusion.
Very good point , which would lead to an outlet located inside the barrel sauna whether it was considered to be an accessory building or not , would not fall under the scope of 210.8(f) correct ?
I had the air conditioner units on my mind as that was one the biggest problematic things with this requirement, but did know it included all outside outlets other than the mentioned lighting outlets in the wording and/or exception but for some reason did not think about interior of dwelling accessory buildings/structures though I'm sure I was aware of it applying there at one time, just haven't been required to do so yet.
Are you talking about "in" accessory buildings? changing to "at" accessory buildings - meaning on the exterior?
I believe that’s exactly what he means
It looks like they plan on incorporating sp gfci protection for listed hvac equipment once the tia expires and seeing either class A or SP GFCI protection as acceptable . I wonder if there are conditions as to which one will be acceptable based on the load pf the equipment may Don can provide clarity
