Fixing the NEC

Master Nater said:
but what happens when next month when the power company decides it's going to change out the transformer
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All this discussion of "What happens when" becomes rather silly, we don't plan and build for all the "What if?"s, we plan and build for the "Now and reasonably foreseeable" - the PoCo might upsize the feeding transformer, but they also might refeed the property which happens to lower the AFC. The county might widen the road in front from 2 lanes to six forcing the PoCo to move all the lines and incidentally change the AFC. (I might win the lottery :ROFLMAO:.)

Anyone want to size a service for what the client might install if they turn the warehouse into a manufacturing shop? I doubt it. Do the job right with today's rules and conditions.
 
zbang said:
All this discussion of "What happens when" becomes rather silly, we don't plan and build for all the "What if?"s, we plan and build for the "Now and reasonably foreseeable" - the PoCo might upsize the feeding transformer, but they also might refeed the property which happens to lower the AFC. The county might widen the road in front from 2 lanes to six forcing the PoCo to move all the lines and incidentally change the AFC. (I might win the lottery :ROFLMAO:.)

Anyone want to size a service for what the client might install if they turn the warehouse into a manufacturing shop? I doubt it. Do the job right with today's rules and conditions.
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I agree but this sue happy world , and the people with money tend to sue the most
 
AC\DC said:
I agree but this sue happy world , and the people with money tend to sue the most
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What are they going to sue for? You acted in good faith based on the information provided to you by the POCO.

Yes some unscrupulous attorney may sue you for anything, such as using a non-green crew for grounding, but I don't waste my time worrying about it.
 
zbang said:
All this discussion of "What happens when" becomes rather silly, we don't plan and build for all the "What if?"s, we plan and build for the "Now and reasonably foreseeable" - the PoCo might upsize the feeding transformer, but they also might refeed the property which happens to lower the AFC. The county might widen the road in front from 2 lanes to six forcing the PoCo to move all the lines and incidentally change the AFC. (I might win the lottery :ROFLMAO:.)

Anyone want to size a service for what the client might install if they turn the warehouse into a manufacturing shop? I doubt it. Do the job right with today's rules and conditions.
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then you won't mind when we dump all of these stupid GFCI requirements in appliances, because we're already required to ground and bond everything, so there's not electrocution hazard on things like vending machines, dishwashers, and sump pumps.
 
jim dungar said:
What are they going to sue for? You acted in good faith based on the information provided to you by the POCO.

Yes some unscrupulous attorney may sue you for anything, such as using a non-green crew for grounding, but I don't waste my time worrying about it.
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Yes but only the paranoid survive..
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
For example, in your #1, saying they don't do anything and are worthless, is not a technical substantiation.
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I will say nobody has the money to create a presentation to convince CMP's otherwise when it comes to AFCI's when they have to compete against the deep pockets of the manufacturers that have profit to gain by putting together information, presentations, etc. and make them convincing that they are well worth putting them into code even if they have some undesired effects here or there. Similar can be said on a few other topics that have somewhat high level of disagreement within the trade.

This sort of thing goes on in other trades/professions as well. Healthcare related issues is a pretty common one.
 
Master Nater said:
then you won't mind when we dump all of these stupid GFCI requirements in appliances, because we're already required to ground and bond everything, so there's not electrocution hazard on things like vending machines, dishwashers, and sump pumps.
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a) what does that have to do with AFC (and why do you care)?
b) as I understand things, one of the reasons we have GFCIs on many things is because of compromised EGCs, so I don't expect the requirements will be dumped soon and I'll think about it when it comes.

I'll take another one- ground rods for trailer-mounted generators. IMHO they do nothing more than make the inspector happy, so if he want one, fine, he gets one; I'm not going to get worked up about it.
 
zbang said:
a) what does that have to do with AFC (and why do you care)?
b) as I understand things, one of the reasons we have GFCIs on many things is because of compromised EGCs, so I don't expect the requirements will be dumped soon and I'll think about it when it comes.

I'll take another one- ground rods for trailer-mounted generators. IMHO they do nothing more than make the inspector happy, so if he want one, fine, he gets one; I'm not going to get worked up about it.
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So if he says you have to install receptacle jumping on one foot why not! Just to make him happy, to much fluoride
 
(lost the reply I was writing, start again)
hbiss said:
I would like to see the substantiations.
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iaeimagazine.org

How Many Lives will be Saved?

iaeimagazine.org iaeimagazine.org
"Since GFCIs have been required, there has been an 81 percent drop in home electrocutions and a 95 percent drop in electrocutions from consumer electrical powered products. The number of fatalities dropped from 1,000 annually to around 100 per year."

www.cpsc.gov

Electrical Safety Month: Inexpensive Device Protects Consumers Against Shock, Electrocution

Electrical Safety Month: Inexpensive Device Protects Consumers Against Shock, Electrocution
www.cpsc.gov www.cpsc.gov

or even-

And do the manufactures make more profits or just have more revenue? I'd like to see the substantiation of more profits (from these devices).

AC\DC said:
So if he says you have to install receptacle jumping on one foot why not!
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If I can bill for it.... anyway, that's not a relevant comparison; more apt might be the inspector requiring an EGC inside EMT where it wouldn't be otherwise required, like in an office. Sometimes, if it's quick and easy, it may not be worth fighting over - that's been discussed many times around these forums.
 
GFCI protection of 120v receptacles is great. Especially in wet areas and places where things are plugged in and unplugged frequently like garages, basements, outdoors, workshops, kitchen counters, residential bathrooms, etc. I have no problem at all with that. I do have a problem with requiring GFCI protection for fastened in place appliances to protect people from hazards due to poor manufacturing.

The appliances like dishwashers, HVAC condensers, laundry equipment, etc should not have a failure mode that makes the frame or housing a current carrying conductor, period. GFCI protection for those is limiting liability for appliance and equipment manufacturers and has nothing to do with the structure wiring. Manufacturers are making junk products that the UL approves, and then we have to cover their butts by adding expensive circuit breakers due to poor engineering and assembly practices. That's where I have a problem with it. Manufacturers could add their own GFCI protection in their appliances that would cost a fraction of what we pay for circuit breakers, and then it's their problem and not ours. A Square D QO GFCI 1 pole 20 amp breaker is now something like $70 for a $1 board and some CTs that the equipment manufacturer could install for the same protection.

I run into this all the time doing service work for gas stations. I get a service ticket a month for an outdoor ice chest tripping GFCI receptacles. The ice chest guys say everything is fine, I go check, and the GFCI trips when the compressor kicks on, and the customer has to pay me to tell them to call the ice chest company back. I suppose that's a poor example since outdoor 120v receptacles should be GFCI protected, but it's the same for all kinds of equipment.
 
zbang said:
(lost the reply I was writing, start again)

iaeimagazine.org

How Many Lives will be Saved?

iaeimagazine.org iaeimagazine.org
"Since GFCIs have been required, there has been an 81 percent drop in home electrocutions and a 95 percent drop in electrocutions from consumer electrical powered products. The number of fatalities dropped from 1,000 annually to around 100 per year."

www.cpsc.gov

Electrical Safety Month: Inexpensive Device Protects Consumers Against Shock, Electrocution

Electrical Safety Month: Inexpensive Device Protects Consumers Against Shock, Electrocution
www.cpsc.gov www.cpsc.gov

or even-

And do the manufactures make more profits or just have more revenue? I'd like to see the substantiation of more profits (from these devices).


If I can bill for it.... anyway, that's not a relevant comparison; more apt might be the inspector requiring an EGC inside EMT where it wouldn't be otherwise required, like in an office. Sometimes, if it's quick and easy, it may not be worth fighting over - that's been discussed many times around these forums.
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it actually a perfect comparison cause that ground rod does jack 9&-$ at least the egc in emt is an added safety precaution.
 
The no egc in EMT rule always seemed silly to me. I know that, properly connected, conduit makes a far better conductor than a tiny copper wire due to current carrying capacity, but I've seen so much separated conduit in my time, or broken die cast fittings, that I always pull an EGC. I also crank the heck out of compression EMT fittings or any other fittings, and am a firm believer in "wrench-tight", but I still don't trust it. With the current quality of Indian and Chinese set screw and compression fittings and locknuts, the wire makes me feel better.
 
Unlike AFCIs, I'm not denying that GFCI's save lives and shouldn't be used but those numbers look unbelievable. Coming from the CPSC I can understand why. I would like to see where they got that data from. Aren't they also out there beating the drum for AFCIs the same way?

-Hal
 
zbang said:
a) what does that have to do with AFC (and why do you care)?
b) as I understand things, one of the reasons we have GFCIs on many things is because of compromised EGCs, so I don't expect the requirements will be dumped soon and I'll think about it when it comes.

I'll take another one- ground rods for trailer-mounted generators. IMHO they do nothing more than make the inspector happy, so if he want one, fine, he gets one; I'm not going to get worked up about it.
Click to expand...
i said it back in post #68, but i'll re-iterate. every stupid code, and overly-redundant code, and every manufacturing lobbyist-incentivized code (like AFCIs) that the code board members keep shoving into everyone's faces is just another excuse for every-day people to say "i've had enough." and do you know what? so have i ... and many other electricians who know that putting a freezer on a GFI is going to cause OUR customers to lose about $3000 worth of meat, when it randomly decides to trip.

so, what do these every-day people do to get away from this good-idea-fairy running wild? they make the choice to hire unlicensed handymen, or their "cousin's, friend's, uncle who used to be an electrician in zimbabwe" to do their electrical work!

all of these ridiculous codes, that needlessly drive up the price of a quality electrical installation only incentivise non-electricians to hire other non-electricians to do their work, because of all of the stupid stuff that licensed elctricians will be forced to do. there's a reason that the very first article of NFPA 70 is article 90 - PRACTICAL SAFEGUARDING.

what's worse is, this insanity and lobbyist mentality defeats the entire purpose of having electrical and building codes in the first place.
 
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