2 pole GFCI breaker

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shockin

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I have an application in a commercial kitchen where I need to feed a 120v - 20amp duplex receptacle with two circuits. (top half / bottom half) This needs to be GFI protected, and since I have two circuits feeding one device it will need to be a two pole breaker. My question is, will a two pole GFCI breaker work in this application. Obviously there will be an imbalance between the two legs, but will that cause the GFCI to trip? I haven't run across this before, and I'm not sure how the breaker actually functions. Thanks in advance.
 
Yes, as long as the 2-pole breaker is rated 120/240, it has a neutral wire with the breaker that connects to the neutral bar.

So the breaker looks at the entire picture when determining when to trip. Line-to-line loads are fine, line-to-neutral loads are fine, combinations of the two are fine, but as soon as it sees a line-to-question mark load, it trips.

This needs to be GFI protected, and since I have two circuits feeding one device it will need to be a two pole breaker.
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I'm going to get silly but technically correct here.

No: if you were to use two single pole breakers, and connect the handles with a handle-tie, then you could use single pole breakers. (210.7).

You'd then have box-fill issues, because you'd have to have two sets of neutrals, and hots, and you'd have to break the neutral tab on the receptacles as well as the hot side, and wire-nut the neutrals and pigtail off to the single screw provided on the receptacle.

Just being technically correct. :D
 
George,

Two single poles GFCI breakers cannot share a common nuetral without nusiance tripping. The only way to GFCI protect a 3 wire circuit is with a two pole breaker.
 
Jim,
georgestolz said:
You'd then have box-fill issues, because you'd have to have two sets of neutrals, and hots, and you'd have to break the neutral tab on the receptacles as well as the hot side, and wire-nut the neutrals and pigtail off to the single screw provided on the receptacle.
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Thanks for the help. I thought that handle ties weren't allowed any more, so I ruled that option out, but you are correct. I think a factory two pole might still be the better option now that I know that it will function as I want it to. Thanks
 
I think what George is proposing is correct. If the box is fed by two independent circuits (2 hots and 2 neutrals) then each half of the duplex woulud be on a different circuit. Since it would not be a multiwire, simultaneous disconnection would not be required and the SP GFCI's would not nuisance trip becuase they would not share a neutral.

Mark
 
busman,

I believe that it would still meet the definition of a multi-wire branch circuit, and would still need to be simuultaneously disconnected. According to 210.7.
 
Quit arguing, you're both wrong. :lol:

They are multiple branch circuits on one yoke.
They are not a multiwire branch circuit. See "Branch Circuit, Multiwire" in Article 100.
mwbcvsmbcs.jpg

busman said:
Since it would not be a multiwire, simultaneous disconnection would not be required...
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210.7(B) requires simultaneous disconnection of the two circuits.

:)
 
1793 said:
georgestolz said:
...and you'd have to break the neutral tab on the receptacles
Click to expand...

...wire-nut the neutrals and pigtail off to the single screw provided on the receptacle.
Click to expand...

Why break off the neutral bridge of the receptacle to only pigtail together again?
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Because, there are two circuits in the box. Like two 12-2's running side by side into each box, and out again. You couldn't combine the two circuit's neutrals together without a 310.4 violation and a GFCI trip.
 
Re: 2 pole GFCI breaker

shockin said:
I have an application in a commercial kitchen where I need to feed a 120v - 20amp duplex receptacle with two circuits. (top half / bottom half)...
Click to expand...

there is no mention of feeding through to another set of receptacles. So I still contend that we break the neutral bridge and the hots and use two single pole gfci breakers with handle tie or two pole gfci breaker feeding this with a MWBC.
 
georgestolz said:
1793 said:
georgestolz said:
...and you'd have to break the neutral tab on the receptacles
Click to expand...

...wire-nut the neutrals and pigtail off to the single screw provided on the receptacle.
Click to expand...

Why break off the neutral bridge of the receptacle to only pigtail together again?
Click to expand...
Because, there are two circuits in the box. Like two 12-2's running side by side into each box, and out again. You couldn't combine the two circuit's neutrals together without a 310.4 violation and a GFCI trip.
Click to expand...

I think George mean to say wire nut the grounds (there isn't a single screw for the neutrals).
 
George I am not denying that two single pole breakers can be used to feed receptacles using variations of a multi-wire circuit.

But. if you have two single pole GFCI breakers that share a neutral at any point on their load side you will have the probability of a nuisance trip due to the division of neutral currents. If they are two completely different circuits then no handle tie would be required at all.
 
Maybe the code on my desk here is too old (1996). The 2002 is at home. This code says in 210-4 "In dwelling units, a multiwire branch circuit supplying more than one device or equipment on the same yoke shall be provided with a means to disconnect simultaneously all ungrounded conductors..."

Did this at some point become a requirement for separate circuits on the same yoke?

Thanks,

Mark
 
I guess I'm too far behind. We just adopted the 2002 after a long time on 1999. I don't even own 2005 (no need for it). Learn something new everyday. Sorry George.

Mark
 
paul32 said:
georgestolz said:
1793 said:
georgestolz said:
...and you'd have to break the neutral tab on the receptacles
Click to expand...

...wire-nut the neutrals and pigtail off to the single screw provided on the receptacle.
Click to expand...

Why break off the neutral bridge of the receptacle to only pigtail together again?
Click to expand...
Because, there are two circuits in the box. Like two 12-2's running side by side into each box, and out again. You couldn't combine the two circuit's neutrals together without a 310.4 violation and a GFCI trip.
Click to expand...

I think George mean to say wire nut the grounds (there isn't a single screw for the neutrals).
Click to expand...
No, I meant wirenut the neutrals.
Jim Dungar said:
George I am not denying that two single pole breakers can be used to feed receptacles using variations of a multi-wire circuit.

But. if you have two single pole GFCI breakers that share a neutral at any point on their load side you will have the probability of a nuisance trip due to the division of neutral currents. If they are two completely different circuits then no handle tie would be required at all.
Click to expand...
Not true.

  • Picture a 1/? panel. You install two single pole breakers.
  • Being an unabashed eccentric, you put the first breaker in space 1, and the second breaker in space 5. You install a third breaker in space 3 solely so that you can tie handles 1 and 5 together.
  • These two breakers are on the same phase.
  • They are GFCI breakers.
  • You pull two runs of 12-2 to a duplex receptacle.
  • You pull two runs of 12-2 from this receptacle to another, and end the circuit there.
  • You install the receptacles. In the first box in the circuit, you have four 12-2's.
  • Two 12-2's for circuit 1, and two 12-2's for circuit 5.
  • You break the neutral tab, and the ungrounded tab, on the duplex receptacle.
  • You must wirenut circuit 1's neutrals together, because circuit 1 has only one screw to use on the duplex.
  • The same goes for the hots connecting to the receptacle for circuit 1.
  • The same goes for the neutrals connecting to the receptacle for circuit 5.
  • The same goes for the hots connecting to the receptacle for circuit 5.
This is an example of multiple circuits on the same yoke, which are required to be handle-tied together at the panel per 210.7(B).

These are not multiwire circuits. They do not have a voltage between them, because they're on the same phase.
 
George,

Your last explanation finally clarified that you were talking about continuing the circuits to feed multiple receptacles. You are correct you have multi circuits. However your previous posts did not make clear the purpose of your "wire-nut the neutrals" comment.
 
Yes, it makes sense now. I didn't see the one screw part. If you would have said wirenutting both it would have made more sense. I don't use the device to feed through anyway, so I always wirenut the hots and neutrals.
 
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