2011 code neutral in all switches?

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LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
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Henrico County, VA
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Electrical Contractor
(2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting
loads enter the box through a framing cavity that is
open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, or
through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on
one side"
To me, "open at the top or bottom on the same floor level" means, for example, a stud space that is not sealed, such as 8' drywall on 9' studs with the gap accessible above a suspended ceiling, at least on one side.
 

Dennis Alwon

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To me, "open at the top or bottom on the same floor level" means, for example, a stud space that is not sealed, such as 8' drywall on 9' studs with the gap accessible above a suspended ceiling, at least on one side.
I think we are saying the same thing. I agree. I also made a proposal awhile back to delete this exception as it makes no sense. What good does it do if the neutral for that circuit is not available as would be if it were a 3 way dead end switch for a stair light where said switch is in an unfinished basement.
 

Dennis Alwon

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To me, "open at the top or bottom on the same floor level" means, for example, a stud space that is not sealed, such as 8' drywall on 9' studs with the gap accessible above a suspended ceiling, at least on one side.


So what happens if there is a purlin in the wall.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
What good does it do if the neutral for that circuit is not available as would be if it were a 3 way dead end switch for a stair light where said switch is in an unfinished basement.
Considering that 3-ways travel in pairs (all puns intended), the rule does, or should apply to both (or all if 4-way(s), too.)
 

Dennis Alwon

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If you mean a fire-block or other framing member, then the wall cavity is not open.

The problem with conditional rules is the conditions often become the subject of debate.

It is open at the top and bottom as the code states just not in the middle where there is fireblocking (purlin)
 

Dennis Alwon

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Location
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Considering that 3-ways travel in pairs (all puns intended), the rule does, or should apply to both (or all if 4-way(s), too.)

The code does not apply to both 3 ways if the one in the basement is accesible. The way it is written I could have a 3 way in the finished first floor with a neutral and a dead end 3 way in the basement that is unfinished.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
It is open at the top and bottom as the code states just not in the middle where there is fireblocking (purlin)
As long as the box is available through one of the openings.

The code does not apply to both 3 ways if the one in the basement is accesible. The way it is written I could have a 3 way in the finished first floor with a neutral and a dead end 3 way in the basement that is unfinished.
That'll work. The rule applies to each switch.
 

Dennis Alwon

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9TOtDjk7Qs

I thought so , too, until i saw this.

Well I watch all 8 minutes and I noticed a few mistakes in that presentation. I do not agree with Mike's assessment on the last issue of open at top or bottom as it makes no sense after the description of the sheetrock being open above a suspended ceiling. Of course, this is his interpretation and may very well be what the cmp intended but it is unclear. The fact is how does any of this insure that a neutral of the same circuit is available for that switch. IMO, I would leave the raceway exception and do away with the other.

What about a dp switch used as a disconnect for a well? Obviously we need to use common sense here but this section needs a total rewrite.
 

tryinghard

Senior Member
Location
California
I still depend on the kindness of strangers to post the code excerpts in question so that I can attempt to decipher the possible meanings using symbolic logic.

To help me in this effort I have just borrowed a copy of Elementary Symbolic Logic from my local library. How did I get along so far without it???

I was generously offered a current codebook via e-mail but I am having trouble with my e-mail account. See "kindness of strangers" above.

Regarding the NEC, I think the whole thing can be reduced to a humongous computer program. You type in questions and it answers you. I think they call such a program an "inference network." Maybe somebody already sells one.

If not, if you'll forward me a check then I'll start on it! How's that for a logical IF-THEN statement???
A national electrical code site with no book - hope you don't cross over to electrical engineering with this mindset, I'm guessing you?re a curious mechanical? :)
 

G._S._Ohm

Senior Member
Location
DC area
- hope you don't cross over to electrical engineering with this mindset
with no book

Too late.
A really brief resume would read
"electronic engineer turned whistleblower, with course credit in comp. sci and stats. Also did some coursework at the SHK.
Knowing too much about stats is what got me illegally forced out of my last job. Statistics can't say what is true but it can pretty well tell you who's lying.

BTW, the NEC doesn't seem to be helping anybody understand the NEC. :grin:
 

Dennis Alwon

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I think the NEC proves how complicated it can be to use electricity correctly and or safely.
Nope, it has to do with how difficult the english language can be. :grin: If one thinks about it the NEC is quite an amazing feat. They have had years but trying to cover every situation is a nightmare.
 

e2me2

Member
Location
South Dakota
Ice cream machine maybe

Ice cream machine maybe

To me the type of thinking above is completely backwards.
If we need a neutral we pull one, if we dont need one we dont.
but it shouldnt be a violation if we dont pull one when one is not needed at that time.
Yes otherwise soon we will be pulling a 220 30a to every kitchen counter in case they get a ice cream machine in the future. The future is the future and we should not be required to prewire for stuff we are not installing
 

jusme123

Senior Member
Location
NY
Occupation
JW
To me the type of thinking above is completely backwards.
If we need a neutral we pull one, if we dont need one we dont.
but it shouldnt be a violation if we dont pull one when one is not needed at that time.
Yes otherwise soon we will be pulling a 220 30a to every kitchen counter in case they get a ice cream machine in the future. The future is the future and we should not be required to prewire for stuff we are not installing

Its the NEC designing for the future
 
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