2014 406.4(D)(4) Replacement Receptacles

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al hildenbrand said:
I agree with the Massachusetts interpretation. But don't find that it says anything more than the NEC does in 406.

The passage doesn't say "when you replace a receptacle, it has to be AFCI protected", rather, it says, go to the rest of the NEC to find out if you have to install AFCI protection when you replace a receptacle.

The "after thought": I mean, if all it said was AFCI must be added, then we'd be installing AFCI protection EVERYWHERE a receptacle is replaced.
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The way I read it seems pretty simple and clear:

They are not saying to go to the NEC to determine whether or not a replacement receptacle must be AFCI protected. They are saying that if that a receptacle/circuit segment in that location would have to be AFCI protected in new construction under the current code, then a replacement receptacle in the same location must also be protected.
 
I do understand the fascination with limiting "elsewhere in this Code" 210.12(A) however, that's not what's written.
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GoldDigger said:
The way I read it seems pretty simple and clear:



They are not saying to go to the NEC to determine whether or not a replacement receptacle must be AFCI protected. They are saying that if that a receptacle/circuit segment in that location would have to be AFCI protected in new construction under the current code, then a replacement receptacle in the same location must also be protected.
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al hildenbrand said:
I agree with the Massachusetts interpretation. But don't find that it says anything more than the NEC does in 406.

The passage doesn't say "when you replace a receptacle, it has to be AFCI protected", rather, it says, go to the rest of the NEC to find out if you have to install AFCI protection when you replace a receptacle.

The "after thought": I mean, if all it said was AFCI must be added, then we'd be installing AFCI protection EVERYWHERE a receptacle is replaced.
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you get that from this:
QUESTION: [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]"For receptacle outlets subject to mandatory AFCI protection under current requirements in the Massachusetts Electrical Code, does 406.4(D)(4) require receptacle replacements in such location to have AFCI protection either inherently or on their supply side, and regardless of the reason for the replacement or the previous status of AFCI protection?"
[/FONT][/FONT]

Help US ALL!!!!!!
 
al hildenbrand said:
I know!

And you don't.

Frustrating isn't it? :cool:
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Dude you are really thick headed.
The Mass interpetation says " .....does 406.4(D)(4) require receptacle replacements in such location to have AFCI protection either inherently or on their supply side, and regardless of the reason for the replacement....."

It is only speaking of replacements and the location.

The exception in 210.12 b is not a location it is an exception allowing extensions or modifications no longer than 6' .
A replacement of a outlet is not a modification.


:thumbsup:
 
al hildenbrand said:
But, adding pigtails, where there were none, IS a modification.
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The heck with the pigtail issue.
Fine add your pigtail , however I seriously doub't that you will be only doing just that. I never heard of anyone placing pigtails in outlet boxes without replacing the receptacle. Yea I always add Allumiconn connectors then a pigtal to a old crusty outlet , Yea that is very reasonble and responsible.

SO Keep up the nonsense, place your pigtails and leave the old crusty device.
 
Sierrasparky said:
Fine add your pigtail , however I seriously doub't that you will be only doing just that. I never heard of anyone placing pigtails in outlet boxes without replacing the receptacle.
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You are not reading what I've written.

The specific case I have described in the posts of this thread include adding pigtails to existing Knob and Tube conductors, to help ensure a stable installation over time, (and, again, I emphasize that this is in cases where the Knob and Tube installation is in serviceable condition), is part of replacing an existing receptacle. The branch circuit CONDUCTORS are extended. That is a modification. AND the receptacle is replaced.
 
al hildenbrand said:
You are not reading what I've written.

The specific case I have described in the posts of this thread include adding pigtails to existing Knob and Tube conductors, to help ensure a stable installation over time, (and, again, I emphasize that this is in cases where the Knob and Tube installation is in serviceable condition), is part of replacing an existing receptacle. The branch circuit CONDUCTORS are extended. That is a modification. AND the receptacle is replaced.
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as I said before and now. Keep up the nonsense. You are really going to pigtail receptacles in old knob and tube and re-install the old loose receptacle and not replace with new?

Get real. That would be hack work.
 
al hildenbrand said:
You are not reading what I've written.

The specific case I have described in the posts of this thread include adding pigtails to existing Knob and Tube conductors, to help ensure a stable installation over time, (and, again, I emphasize that this is in cases where the Knob and Tube installation is in serviceable condition), is part of replacing an existing receptacle. The branch circuit CONDUCTORS are extended. That is a modification. AND the receptacle is replaced.
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Sierrasparky said:
as I said before and now. Keep up the nonsense. You are really going to pigtail receptacles in old knob and tube and re-install the old loose receptacle and not replace with new?

Get real. That would be hack work.
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.................
 
Al I have no idea what it is you are saying or what side you are on.

Are you stating that you must install a afci device in a bedroom if you are merely replacing a receptacle in a old house that may or may not be KT?
 
Sierrasparky said:
Al I have no idea what it is you are saying or what side you are on.

Are you stating that you must install a afci device in a bedroom if you are merely replacing a receptacle in a old house that may or may not be KT?
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2014 NEC 206.4(D)(4) is in effect on this coming Tuesday for me (July 1, 2014). If I replace a receptacle in an old house that DOES HAVE Knob and Tube supplying that specific receptacle, some here are saying that the NEW REPLACEMENT RECEPTACLE must have AFCI protection.

I am saying I agree that a simple receptacle replacement must have AFCI protection.

HOWEVER, if I add pigtails, thus extending the branch circuit conductors, WHILE I REPLACE THE RECEPTACLE, then I am saying the new replacement receptacle need not have AFCI protection as allowed by 2014 NEC 210.12(B)Exception.
 
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al hildenbrand said:
2014 NEC 206.4(D)(4) is in effect on this coming Tuesday for me (July 1, 2014). If I replace a receptacle in an old house that DOES HAVE Knob and Tube supplying that specific receptacle, some here are saying that the NEW REPLACEMENT RECEPTACLE must have AFCI protection.

I am saying I agree that a simple receptacle replacement must have AFCI protection.

HOWEVER, if I add pigtails, thus extending the branch circuit conductors, WHILE I REPLACE THE RECEPTACLE, then I am saying the new replacement receptacle need not have AFCI protection as allowed by 2014 NEC 210.12(B)Exception.
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Yup that is what I thought you said and you acused me of not understanding what you said.
Your thinking is really rediculous.
Ok as I said that you can pigtail all you want. Replace that outlet and install a AFCI. It does not matter what you do first. The 6 foot rule applies only to adding no more than wire. You can add wire between outlets and keep the old receptacle. Heck I have even added a wire for a downstream new outlet and just wirenutted at the existing outlet leaving the old receptacle.

Remove and replace a outlet then expect the code to dictate you install a AFCI
 
Sierrasparky said:
The 6 foot rule applies only to adding no more than wire.
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Replacing an existing receptacle device inside an existing receptacle outlet with a new receptacle device is NOT adding an additional outlet or device.
2014 National Electrical Code
210.12(B) Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications - Dwelling Units
Exception. AFCI protection shall not be required where the extension of the existing conductors is not more than 1.8 m (6 ft.) and does not include any additional outlets or devices.
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It does not matter that the replacement receptacle is brand new. The language in the Exception says "additional" . . . NOT "new".
 
That exception only speaks of adding wire that is it.
What part of that don't you get.

You really think that an inspector would allow with his knowledge that you pigtailed the entire house and by the way replaced the outlets and installed no afci. And on another job where you did not pigtail but did the same and you afci because you think you need to and were forced to by the AHJ.
 
Sierrasparky said:
That exception only speaks of adding wire that is it.
What part of that don't you get.

You really think that an inspector would allow with his knowledge that you pigtailed the entire house and by the way replaced the outlets and installed no afci. And on another job where you did not pigtail but did the same and you afci because you think you need to and were forced to by the AHJ.
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We are, again, repeating. Thank you for engaging and participating.
 
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